Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Watch the original video:
Check out the full discussion and visuals on our YouTube channel.

Disclaimer:
This podcast provides general information and entertainment only. It’s not a substitute for medical advice. Please consult your healthcare provider about any health concerns or questions specific to your pregnancy and personal situation.

About Hilary, The Pregnancy Nurse®
Hilary is a registered nurse with over 20 years of labor and delivery experience. Since 1997, she’s helped thousands of pregnant patients navigate the ups and downs of pregnancy, including common concerns like ligament pain. Her mission is to empower families with clear, expert information for a smoother pregnancy journey.

Timestamps:

00:00 Understanding unexpected pain experiences

03:46 Understanding pregnancy ligament pain

07:08 Identifying pain and when to visit

The post From Sharp Stabs to Relief: Navigating Ligament Pain in Pregnancy with a Pro Nurse – 266 appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Disclaimer: This episode is meant for entertainment and general medical information purposes only. It is not medical advice. Please consult your own provider for guidance specific to your pregnancy.

Watch the original video:
Find the original episode on Youtube https://youtu.be/aqHSHhcyrvQ?list=PLtc_SbtL2LYHwTOyMArKTWoxAQD0G2lsq

Why Hilary is an expert:
Hilary Erickson has been a nurse since 1997 and brings over 20 years of labor and delivery expertise to the podcast. Having helped thousands of people push out their babies, she knows firsthand how every birth is different and what really works in the delivery room.

 00:00 Pushing and Parenting: No Rules

05:12 “Pushing Techniques in Childbirth”

06:07 “Flexibility in Birthing Methods”

10:07 Optimal Positions for Pushing Birth

13:38 “Preparing for Pushing at Delivery”

The post How to Push Out Your Baby: Options, Expert Advice, and Personal Choice 265 appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Big thanks to our sponsor The Online Prenatal Class for Couples — if you’re looking for support & helping your partner support you too — it’s the class for you!

Today’s guest is Erin Galloway. Erin is a licensed master social worker and certified perinatal mental health professional dedicated to empowering women, supporting families, and connecting people with resources and community. Erin is the CEO of She Might, the online resource and community for women walking through unexpected motherhood. Erin is a mom of two, a Phoenix Suns fan, Americano enthusiast, and podcast lover.

Links for you:

Get resources for your unplanned pregnancy: https://www.shemight.com/resources

Episode with Dani’s pregnancy story: https://www.pullingcurls.com/262-getting-pregnant-advocacy/

Timestamps:

00:00 Unexpected Pregnancies Affect Everyone

05:32 “Unexpected Pregnancy After Years Trying”

09:29 “Parenthood Decisions and Identity Impact”

10:17 “Navigating Reactions to Unplanned Pregnancy”

13:30 Navigating Pregnancy and Unexpected Grief

18:46 “Unexpected Twists in Pregnancy”

22:26 Varied Emotions in Birth Stories

24:06 Navigating Pregnancy Challenges Together

28:08 Effective Communication for Better Support

29:49 Maternity Support & Resources Hub

32:56 “Pulling Curls Podcast Appreciation”

Keypoints:

• Unplanned or unexpected pregnancies are very common—almost half of pregnancies in the U.S. fall into this category, and they can happen to anyone, regardless of age, relationship status, or birth control use.
• Many misconceptions exist about unplanned pregnancies, such as the belief they mostly happen to teenagers or people in crisis, when in reality, they affect people from all walks of life.
• Feeling conflicted, numb, overwhelmed, or not immediately excited about a pregnancy is normal—even among those who tried to conceive or are experienced in pregnancy and childbirth.
• Unplanned pregnancies can trigger complex emotions, including grief for one’s previous lifestyle, personal identity, and future plans that are suddenly shifted or delayed.
• The reactions of partners, family, and friends to the news of an unexpected pregnancy can be surprising or disappointing, often because they, too, are processing shock or need time to adjust.
• Grief around unexpected pregnancy is valid—people may experience ambiguous or disenfranchised grief, mourning the loss of their former freedoms or the plans they thought they’d have.
• There is a wide spectrum of feelings experienced throughout pregnancy and postpartum, no matter how the pregnancy happened; bonding with the baby and feelings about motherhood develop differently for everyone.
• Support groups, mental health professionals, and online communities like She Might provide essential resources and a sense of belonging for those navigating unexpected pregnancies.
• Social media tends to showcase only the positive or “picture-perfect” aspects of pregnancy and motherhood, but tough emotions and struggles are far more common than people might share publicly.
• Recognizing and celebrating small wins, seeking help, and finding ways to bring pieces of pre-pregnancy joy into new routines can help parents cope and adapt through the journey of an unplanned pregnancy.

Producer: Drew Erickson

[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: You’re pregnant and it’s not planned. Today on the Pulling Curls Podcast, we’re talking about unexpected or unplanned pregnancies. Let’s untangle it.

[00:00:07] Hi, I’m Hilary, a Serial over Complicator. I’m also a nurse mom to three and the curly head behind pulling curls and the pregnancy nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with pregnancy and parenting untangled: the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:00:37] This episode of the Pulling Curls Podcast is sponsored by the Online Prenatal Class for Couples. It is the easy way to get prepared for your upcoming hospital birth. It’s quick, can be done in just three hours. It’s affordable, so much cheaper than a lot of the online birth classes available, and it’s meant to be done with your partner. To get a teammate rather than just a cheerleader, come join us today.

[00:00:57] Today’s guest is a licensed master social worker and a certified perinatal mental health professional. She’s the CEO of SheMight. I wanna introduce today’s guest, Erin Galloway.

[00:01:07] Hey Erin. Welcome to the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:01:10] Erin Galloway: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: This was planned this episode,

[00:01:14] Erin Galloway: It was,

[00:01:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: but not all babies are planned.

[00:01:18] Erin Galloway: yes, that’s very true.

[00:01:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So how would you frame, like what is an unplanned pregnancy? Because I think all of us think, oh, you’re 12. 12 is probably earlier than most people think. But Hilary, I have delivered 12 year olds, but you’re 16, you and your boyfriend just didn’t think about a condom.

[00:01:34] But that is not what we’re talking about here today, although that happens too. And we’re here to support all those people.

[00:01:40] Erin Galloway: Yeah. Well, I wanna start by saying almost half of the pregnancies in the United States are what you might consider unplanned or unexpected. And that could be, regardless of whether you want to be a parent, whether you’re already a parent, whether you’re in a stable relationship, whether you used birth control or other forms of conception or not.

[00:01:58] Basically, an unexpected pregnancy can happen to anyone. And so like, I’m glad you said what you said because I think when people hear unexpected or unplanned pregnancy, assumptions are made that this must be someone who’s younger or someone in crisis and that’s just not the case. And I think that misconception’s becoming less common as you see a lot of stories on social media from people with different backgrounds and experiences who unexpectedly find themselves pregnant, in a different season of life.

[00:02:23] So I think to define that is really an unexpected pregnancy is just that. It’s unexpected. That could mean, like I said, you were using contraception and it still happened. You thought you were done having kids. You never imagined having kids at all, or not anytime soon. You thought it would take a long time to get pregnant, so you started trying and you didn’t really expect it to happen the first time. And you’re not emotionally ready in that moment till you didn’t expect it. So I think a lot of people expect it to take time. ’cause we’re hearing more and more that it’s taking a year or longer to get pregnant. So these are all real stories I’ve heard from women we’ve spoken to. Everyone’s experience is so different, but I think there are just so many reasons that a pregnancy might be labeled unexpected. Yeah.

[00:03:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I wanna tell like two sides of the stories. First off. We had Dani on the podcast, and she talked about how she used a syringe and semen from a birth bank and did it at home. But even for her, she was super surprised that it worked.

[00:03:23] So even though she, she put all this effort into getting pregnant, it still is like, oh my gosh, now I actually am pregnant. And I think that’s really valid. And I gotta say that as a labor nurse, people who do pregnancy all the time, I had a coworker who was like, oh, my boobs are really hurting today. My period must be coming.

[00:03:41] And we were like, how late is it? And she was like, like a week. And we were all like. Huh,

[00:03:46] Erin Galloway: Yeah.

[00:03:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you know, trying And then a week later we were like, you should go take a pregnancy test.

[00:03:51] And she took one and it was positive and she and I both had kids that were just entering kindergarten. You know, we were just feeling like, oh, we are getting a little bit of our life back and she was starting back with a baby and it was devastating for a while for her, even as people who do labor and delivery

[00:04:08] Erin Galloway: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:08] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Constantly. It was a lot and it was a lot even up until the baby was born. She didn’t feel like she had bonded with her as much. But you know, a couple months in, she was like, it’s exactly the same with the other kids. It just took a while and I think that’s so valid and I think a lot of people are like, this doesn’t happen to people that are like smart and like think about things like this.

[00:04:28] Erin Galloway: No.

[00:04:28] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: think about pregnancy all the time that my coworker was a real smart girl. Stuff happens.

[00:04:34] Erin Galloway: Yeah. And I mean, you see stories all the time where it’s like you just had your baby and six weeks later or however many weeks later or months later, you find yourself pregnant. There’s an ob, GYN, who’s on social media, Dr. Allie, and she got pregnant really soon after she had her baby, and, and it was unexpected.

[00:04:50] Now. Things happen. Again, you can get pregnant while you’re on birth control. So, it’s never 100% guaranteed. And, yeah, you’re right. Like I think even people who think about pregnancy all the time and think about their family and all of this all the time still can become unexpectedly pregnant. And I think that’s hard for people to wrap their minds around. They’re like, well, obviously if you weren’t using protection or weren’t doing X, Y, Z, you’re gonna be pregnant. Well, that’s not the case for everybody. And yeah, there can be that initial response of overwhelm, especially if you didn’t expect it to happen so quick. I mean, I have friends who were like, yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s gonna take us like six months to a year to get pregnant. Well, then it happens and your timeline shifts, right? not in control of that.

[00:05:32] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And, we tried for two to three years to get pregnant with my last baby. And number three, and, after a while you’re like, well, this probably isn’t gonna happen. And I was just about ready to turn the baby factory off. Because again, I had a kid going to kindergarten and I was like, maybe it’s just time to move on with our lives.

[00:05:47] And, got pregnant. And then you’re like, oh my gosh, I actually am pregnant now. What am I gonna do? And you freak out a little bit. Like, I think so many people have these feelings and then are thinking no one else has these feelings. No one ever, everyone ever talks about how you’re like, oh, it took me three years to get pregnant, but now I’m like freaking out inside that I’m pregnant, even though I was trying to do this for so long.

[00:06:07] Erin Galloway: Yeah. The reality sets in, like I planned both of my pregnancies. They happen pretty quickly, and I think with both, I still had those moments of. Okay. Life is gonna change, especially with the first, I remember I, I think I was like three months pregnant, and I remember calling my sister sobbing because I was like, what did I do?

[00:06:24] Like we had, you know, been married a long time and we were just, we weren’t in the season of life that we wanted kids at that time. And then we decided, okay, this is the time, now or never, I mean, I feel like there’s never the right time to have kids. And, well, we made that decision and then it was like, okay, life is changing.

[00:06:39] What does this look like? Did I actually even think about what this is gonna look like. And I think that’s totally normal. And we’ve had clients who come to us and say, Yeah I thought I was ready for this and I feel like I’m not ready. And I think a lot of that is totally, it’s totally normal and natural to be like, oh, life is changing because it is.

[00:06:56] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I love that you guys run a whole community around this because it’s sort of like the unspoken thing about how so many people have unplanned pregnancies. So many people have very surprised pregnancies. So many people have pregnancies that they feel conflicted about inside and people just don’t talk about it ’cause it this, like we’re talking about postpartum anxiety and depression.

[00:07:16] But I think this is an area that we really don’t talk about, that people have conflicting feelings about pregnancy and that’s okay.

[00:07:24] Erin Galloway: I completely agree. And you know, when unexpected pregnancy is a risk factor for perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. So those are things people don’t know. And we recently had our former director of communications on the podcast to talk about mental health during pregnancy and postpartum. And she shared like, that was, that was me.

[00:07:43] That, that I hit all the risk factors for that and that’s why I experienced such significant depression during my pregnancy. And, so I think those are just important things to know.

[00:07:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. So what are some feelings, since you have a whole community about this, I’d love that you’ll be able to, like a broad spectrum of people. How can that affect your pregnancy? Like what do people describe moving through pregnancy?

[00:08:05] Erin Galloway: Yeah, I mean, I think it can completely shift how you feel about the pregnancy, how you feel about your current life situation, how you feel about your partner. I think there are a lot of emotions that come with that. I think it can start by feeling very conflicted. Maybe you’re feeling numb or confused. I mean, we have stress responses for a reason and. We have these responses to pregnancy, so that could look like being numb, feeling confused, feeling very overwhelmed, and not, not being able to kind of even acknowledge the pregnancy. People feel that they’re not excited. That is really hard for people to overcome. They’re like, everybody elsewhere is so excited about everything. But I just don’t feel that excited. I think that’s okay. I’m not an overly excited person like with, with that kinda stuff. And so I almost felt like I feel weird that I’m not like jumping for joy and talking about this constantly. I just felt like I was weird for that. And then even like really not understanding why people aren’t excited for them, or maybe there’s just a response that they don’t get. I think those are unmet expectations that we have when you think, oh, my partner’s gonna be really excited and they’re not. Or their initial reaction is not great. Or a friend or sister, brother, parent, like, I think. When you get a response, that’s not exactly what you expected. I think that’s hard to process. It could also just feel like you’re being knocked off your feet. I think it just stops you in your track. So it doesn’t matter if you were planning to have kids, eventually never planned to have kids or didn’t have plan to have more kids. We see that a lot just stop you, help you pause, and you’re like wondering, what is this gonna do to my life?

[00:09:41] Like how is this gonna affect my career? What about my education, financial stability? What does this mean for my other kids? Like all of these questions come in. And so you’re just wondering like, okay, how is this impacting my relationship? What does this look like for my own identity as a mom, but as an individual? And what, what changes are gonna happen to my independence and what life looks like if I don’t have any kids? So just think there’s logistical things that come up in that response of like, what are we gonna do with this? But I also think there’s just emotional loss that can come up, and I don’t think that’s acknowledged.

[00:10:13] And I think for some people that does mean like grieving some of that.

[00:10:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I wanna touch back on grief in a second, but I loved how you mentioned other people’s reaction because especially let’s say you have a boyfriend that you haven’t known very long, and then you tell your mom that you’re pregnant. And she maybe doesn’t have the reaction that you’re hoping for. As a mom of some adult kids, I can totally understand that. They’re not prepared for it either.

[00:10:36] They weren’t even thinking it, they might not even think that pregnancy was an option for you.

[00:10:40] So I think we gotta be forgiving of other people’s reaction and don’t take a whole lot from it because. We’re just, everybody’s human. We’re all just living our little human lives over here.

[00:10:49] And it just because your mom’s not excited for you initially doesn’t mean she can’t, like 360 turn, because I’ve had friends whose kids have had unplanned pregnancies and man, they love those grand babies so much. So don’t think that that’s gonna be your reaction forever, or if your reaction is gonna extend to your pregnancy journey.

[00:11:05] It doesn’t mean that, because I think, I don’t know if people listening or people of faith or people of like God’s plan or, just like life plans in general. But I think a large part of the reason we’re pregnant for so long is to give our minds time to wrap around the fact that we’re going to have a baby, to prepare for the baby, to prepare a relationship in our home.

[00:11:24] And, obviously the baby has to grow inside and all those different kinds of things, but sometimes when I hear about animals that have like a six week gestation, I’m like, oh, I’m glad. I’m glad we had more time than that to really wrap my mind around this. I’m glad I didn’t have 40 kittens, right.

[00:11:37] Erin Galloway: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a great point. I think I always tell clients you can’t control how someone reacts, you can take control how you process it and kind of what you accept into your own world basically. And, remember if this is a shock to you, it’s, it might be a shock to other people too. And people say stupid things, that is the reality. When I remember just early on in pregnancy, when people were saying things to me, I’m like. This is accurate. People actually say the stupidest things to you when you’re pregnant and postpartum and as you’re, you know, being a parent. It’s just something that happens and I don’t know what shifts and I think people have really good intentions and they just wanna be helpful, but it’s not always helpful.

[00:12:18] So that’s kind of on our end to set boundaries, but also be able to kind of process some of that.

[00:12:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: and allow grace for that initial reaction because, as unexpected as it is for you, it may be three times more unexpected for them.

[00:12:31] Erin Galloway: Yeah.

[00:12:31] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. Going back to grief though, I think it’s so valid to grieve, your pre-pregnancy life, your pre-pregnancy body, your life before you had to have all these different thoughts because,

[00:12:42] Erin Galloway: Yeah.

[00:12:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: before you got pregnant, you gotta think about like, what am I gonna wear?

[00:12:46] Where am I gonna party at this weekend? And then all of a sudden you know, this baby is coming, car seats, strollers, prenatal appointments, prenatal vitamins, trying to keep them down, trying not to throw up. What do people say about all that?

[00:12:58] Erin Galloway: Yeah. I think first, like grief is a natural response to change. And an unexpected pregnancy is a huge change. So, there’s a couple different types of grief that we see often with unexpected pregnancy. So ambiguous loss is the kind of loss that feels very unclear or unresolved. It’s just like this emotional pain that comes when there’s really not a lot of closure. Maybe you’re grieving something that doesn’t really have a name to it, or maybe it’s something no one’s gonna acknowledge as a loss. So that could look like grieving the version of your life you thought you’d have in this season. The plans and timeline you had in place. I’ve had clients who found out they’re pregnant and they had these plans this weekend to do something that you can’t do while you’re pregnant. That’s okay to grieve that, like that’s a sudden change for you. you might be grieving the emotional or practical support that you’d expected from your village and you didn’t receive it. You might be grieving your freedom or flexibility or the identity you had before this moment. I mean, we talk about at SheMight, that we don’t believe in the false dichotomy that you can have either your career or something, or a child, we believe you can be a great mom and you can have those things if that’s what you desire and that’s what you wanna pursue.

[00:14:04] And so yes, it takes sacrifice. We know your timeline might adjust, but there’s grief in that. There’s grief in processing that. And then I think when we think of your, like pregnancies, pregnancies have unexpected things happen all the time. We talked about this a little bit before that maybe you turned out to be high risk.

[00:14:21] And you didn’t expect that. And you’re grieving what you thought your pregnancy or your delivery would look like. and so when we’re talking about ambiguous loss, we’re also talking about disenfranchised grief. So, like I said. Ambiguous loss is kind of that without clarity. And then disenfranchised grief is the kind of mourning and grief that society is not really recognizing or validating.

[00:14:41] So you might feel that because people are like, well, how did you get pregnant? I mean, you know how you got pregnant, right? Like there’s no such thing as an unexpected pregnancy. That’s what a lot of people can say, but you might feel that, like, sadness that’s really hard to explain, but is real. And it’s dismissed by people in your life or just dismissed by kind of society.

[00:15:00] So I think that could look like grieving something that’s very intangible. Like your future that suddenly looks very different for you. You can still achieve those things, but your timeline looks different. Or, like I said before, maybe your partner. You thought would respond in a certain way and they didn’t. And so that’s impacting how you feel about yourself, how you feel about this pregnancy, and how you feel about your partner. And then, like I said, just kind of what your family looks like. I think they’re, these could not seem like losses to other people, but they’re real to you. They’re still heavy and they matter to you.

[00:15:32] So I think makes it really hard to process that when you feel like. Nobody else is seeing me. Nobody else is feeling what I’m feeling. And it can really make you feel isolated. So I encourage clients and, you know, members of our community to lean into that and process what they’re feeling. Even if it feels silly, it’s real to you, like, and it’s valid for you to process that.

[00:15:52] So, at the end of the day, you can find community, seek out support from, you know, mental health professionals, find a support group. Yeah, join a community and find people who will be able to kind of sit with you in that.

[00:16:04] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I was thinking that we probably don’t share this much on social media because ultimately I probably wouldn’t want my kids to know that. I was like not super excited that they were coming.

[00:16:12] Erin Galloway: Yeah.

[00:16:13] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I think it’s more okay. To say, postpartums horrible because everyone understands you’re not sleeping right?

[00:16:18] So it’s not the baby that you didn’t want, it’s the after effects versus when you’re like, I’m pregnant and I’m not jazzed about it. That ultimately is kind of like, and I’m not jazzed about you.

[00:16:29] Erin Galloway: Yeah.

[00:16:30] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And so that’s probably why we don’t see people talking about it on social media, and I think that that’s valid.

[00:16:34] That’s probably not something that I want held for the time and all eternity for my kids to know those kind of things. Sometimes I see pregnancy announcements where people are just devastated and they filmed it on TikTok and I’m always like, oh, that’s kind of a lot for your kid later on.

[00:16:48] Erin Galloway: Yes.

[00:16:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I, that’s such a valid feeling, right?

[00:16:51] So if you wanna film a TikTok, I’m here to watch it for you, but at the same point, I totally understand why it’s not something that you wanna go shout from the rooftops. But I bet if you bring it up to your mom community, your friend community, especially people who’ve had babies before, you’re gonna hear a lot of Oh, me too.

[00:17:07] Because it’s something that a lot of people feel, but we don’t wanna have it in the canals of time.

[00:17:12] Erin Galloway: Yeah, and I think there’s just unexpected things with pregnancy. Like don’t like being pregnant. I had very difficult pregnancies and so I wasn’t like joyful and happy. And I have friends who experience similar things and I’m like, it’s okay to not like being pregnant.

[00:17:29] That doesn’t make you a bad person. It’s really hard. It is really hard to be pregnant. It’s you’re growing a person, like taking all of you basically to do this while you’re also doing your other things. And so like it’s valid to not be totally like having this unicorn pregnancy where you’re like, I’m just glowing and all of this.

[00:17:48] And so I think part of that comes into that, of like grieving what you thought pregnancy would be like for you and what you had hoped you’d feel about it. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad person and you’re not gonna be an amazing mom. It just means that this is really hard.

[00:18:01] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I would guess there’s absolutely no correlation towards like at a 5-year-old, like, ’cause we’re looking at kids when they have memories and they care about things. A five year old mom versus, comparing them to people who are excited about their pregnancy or loved their pregnancy versus people who didn’t.

[00:18:15] I bet there is no correlation between the two except for obviously socioeconomic issues or things like that. So, I know there were so many things that I was worried that my pregnancy would affect me moving forward and ultimately absolutely didn’t. I made way worse choices as a mom with teenagers than I did with those, so,

[00:18:34] Okay.

[00:18:35] So I wanted to talk about like, what are some other like areas that you notice people getting sort of caught off guard by the grief or stuff as they move forward through pregnancy and ultimately having the baby?

[00:18:46] Erin Galloway: I mean, I think after you come to terms with this is happening, this is my life right now. I think things can still shift in unexpected ways. And we’ve talked about this a little bit. You could be told that you’re high risk or that there’s some kind of complication, even if you’re a healthy person. Or you might experience a pregnancy filled with every single symptom imaginable. I had a friend that this happened to. And all I could just hope for for her is that like, man, I just want your birth to be so much easier than what your pregnancy has been. Because I’m just like, sometimes people get like every symptom imaginable and it can seem like at every appointment brings a new surprise and that. That like those surprises are considered quote unquote normal for pregnancy. I just saw something you had posted about that of like feeling like you’re just being told everything’s normal. Well, how do you actually process that and figure out like how to make it better for yourself too, because obviously our doctors can’t solve all of our problems.

[00:19:40] Like it’s, that’s the reality of pregnancy. And so I think when you’re experiencing unexpected things during pregnancy, you’re high risk. You have things that you didn’t expect to happen, that can still kind of catch you off guard. there’s just a lot of emotional ups and downs with that. I experienced that with my first pregnancy that it seemed like everything was going wrong with it. so it was hard to imagine that things weren’t gonna keep going wrong. ,

[00:20:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And I think during pregnancy, it’s the first time a lot of people are managing healthcare in general because you’ve been a young, healthy person up until this point, and now all of a sudden, because pregnancy sort of ages your body like 20 to 30 years, just because of all the strain on it. And so suddenly you’re looking at healthcare like a 60-year-old versus a 30-year-old.

[00:20:28] And so it changes things night and day. And I’m here to tell you that, you know, after pregnancy, most often, you again are a healthy young person, but healthcare can be a lot during pregnancy that you weren’t prepared for.

[00:20:41] Erin Galloway: Super overwhelming. People don’t expect bills to come in. I remember I thought, oh yeah, like I’ll probably just have to pay my deductible. And no, I had to pay a certain amount for my prenatal visits and I didn’t expect that. If you’re not told, you’re not gonna know and if you don’t do the research. So, that was unexpected for me. I think relationships can be unexpected. People will continue to have responses for things that you don’t expect. Maybe this surprise you in a positive way, but sometimes it’s a negative thing. And so it’s just kind of processing that, figuring out what your relationships look like. Relationships change as you become a mom. I was one of the first people to become a mom in my friend group. And, so my kids have a lot of incredible aunts. But that was kind of an interesting transition of like, what priorities shift and you’re gonna see that. And, so that’s, I think, unexpected for people. And then, you know, when you get to the point where you’re having your baby. Your delivery, there are things that will probably come up that are unexpected for you. You haven’t experienced this before. and so that’s really hard. And then some things come up and you could have a traumatic delivery or a bad experience that you have to process and heal from. I think we talked about it a little when we were on the SheMight podcast that feeling like you’re not bonding with your baby right away or you don’t like immediately like feel that. And that’s kind of the expected thing. I think there are just so many things that come up in postpartum that think, oh, like we have this newborn bubble. And, it’s just gonna be wonderful. It can be really hard. It is really hard. Even if you’re having the best experience, it’s still hard because you’re learning how to take care of another human.

[00:22:16] And you’re taking care of your baby and navigating feeding and health and healing yourself. After a long nine months of pregnancy.

[00:22:26] It

[00:22:27] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: is a lot to take in. And I think the trap we get stuck in with these unplanned pregnancies is thinking that everyone else, everyone else is feeling something different than you. You know, they all. Immediately bonded with their baby. But because this was an unplanned pregnancy, I didn’t feel that rush of love right as they put baby on my chest.

[00:22:44] And I’m here to tell you that there is a wide variety of feelings, no matter how you got pregnant, if it was a, you know, an intended syringe pregnancy or an IVF, right? Where maybe it’s your sixth cycle and you’re just about ready to give up. All of these things have unplanned emotions about ’em, and everybody feels a different way.

[00:23:03] And I’m also here to tell you that as a nurse who sees people give birth in the labor room, when people call their sister an hour later with their birth story and I’m like cleaning up the placenta and all this different kind of stuff, when they tell the story, I’m like, well, that is not how that happened at all.

[00:23:18] They’ll be like, oh. It was like, absolutely. It was like, no pain at all. And I’m like, girl, you were pulling my hand off screaming. You know, an hour ago, and I’m like, that’s cool. Like, because we’re all just getting it filtered through people’s brains after the time has gone on. Most people don’t get to see, you know, that baby put right to chest or whatever.

[00:23:38] But as somebody who’s seen it thousands of times, I’m telling you there are thousands of different ways to feel of your baby, during pregnancy, after delivery, five years down the road. Yeah.

[00:23:49] Erin Galloway: Yeah. Well, and it’s incredible how our brain. Says like, oh, we’ll turn that piece off and that’s why we have more kids. It’s ’cause we forget about those really hard things and like you get to a point where you’re like, oh, I’m sleeping again. We could have another. And so it, it’s just, yeah, I think, yeah, you’re right.

[00:24:06] I think you, you’re going to grieve different pieces of your pregnancy experience or just have to process those things in those moments where it doesn’t feel joyful. It doesn’t feel like this is what you dreamed of, or you’re confused or fearful of something. Or sometimes it comes out that it brings up some past trauma or some stress that you’re experiencing.

[00:24:25] And I think that’s okay to have, and that’s why there are supports out there. That’s where there are mental health professionals that specifically work, with pregnant and postpartum women. And, that’s why, you know, there are communities out there so that you can put it online and say, Hey, you know, this is what I’m feeling.

[00:24:42] Does anyone feel the same? And feel like, oh, I’m not alone in this. Like I would say every single post that I see in our community, there’s at least one person that says, oh no, I felt that way too. Like that’s, it’s normal. I mean, you still need that support, but it’s normal. Like you’re not a bad person for feeling that way or having that emotion.

[00:24:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And the other thing you had mentioned is to, you know, some people have a a positive reaction when you have your baby. They’re so excited for you versus the, and we’re always gonna glom onto the people that have the negative reaction, right? That’s what our brain is gonna fixate on, oh, she wasn’t happy for me, blah, blah, blah.

[00:25:13] But as a mom, the more we can get and like noticing when we have those positive things. Because as a new mom, young, I was like, I hate a lot of this. Right? But you know, all of a sudden we’d be dragging the wagon to the bookmobile and I remember thinking, this is what I always dreamed motherhood would be like.

[00:25:30] Right. And I was like, I have got to savor this moment because I didn’t think it would be smelling like spit up. I didn’t think that it would be so sleepless, so much crying from both the baby and me. And so noticing those positive times, can be super, super helpful. And of course that’s what people share on social media is them having that time where like, this is what I always thought it was gonna be.

[00:25:52] And that doesn’t, that’s one social media image in a lifetime of, man, this is way different and worse than what I thought it was gonna be.

[00:26:01] Erin Galloway: Yeah, I think we hear that a lot and I always tell people to try to like remember back to before you were pregnant, what are things that like brought you joy in those moments? If this, this current moment’s not bringing you joy in like a little bit of lightness, what are some things you can try? For me that was making sure that I was getting outside and going on walks, especially with my first ’cause I had pretty significant postpartum anxiety that I wasn’t acknowledging at the time, even though I work in this. And it took me probably a couple years to really acknowledge how deeply I was struggling. And so I think just remember those things that actually helped in the past, and try it. It never hurts to try it. It could not work and then you have to find something else. But yeah, my daughter is one in nine days and I’m in the space of like, oh my gosh, that really did go by like fast. Way faster than the first.

[00:26:51] I think it’s ’cause when you have a toddler and a baby, there’s like a million things happening. But, man, I’m looking back to this year and like remembering like, okay, this is, this is crazy how fast this went. And so it, it really is true. Like, I think you’re right, like trying to find those positive things, even taking one good win from the day or one positive thing that happened.

[00:27:10] Even if that’s something that seems silly, like, oh, I actually put the dishes away today from the dishwasher. Or I got outside, or I got dressed, took a shower, read a book. Like anything is a win in my book during that season. So take the steps to try to find those little things. And I think that can help you process those hard moments.

[00:27:30] True.

[00:27:30] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I think that’s true, and I think a lot of times people are like, well, I can’t take the baby. I, I love to go on a walk, but I can’t take the baby. And I’m here to tell you that there is a lot that you can haul your baby with you, especially a walk. I mean,

[00:27:40] Erin Galloway: yeah.

[00:27:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: babies, love walks. So I’m here for that one.

[00:27:43] But if there’s something that you loved before, unless it’s like going to the ballet, probably don’t want to take your baby to that. There’s a lot that you can bring your baby to. You know, let’s say you loved going to the library, take your baby to the, the infant thing at the library. There’s so many things that you can bring your baby to, even though it’s gonna feel overwhelming, give it a shot.

[00:28:02] ‘Cause you sort of have to learn how to like, manage doing things with your baby. But there’s a lot you can do with your baby.

[00:28:08] Erin Galloway: Yeah. And I think learning how to best communicate. We have some really good communication tips, that we have on our website, like as a resource. But like it’s all in how you communicate because sometimes you may have a need and you’re not communicating it. To get the response that you actually need.

[00:28:25] So I think, being able to communicate well and we, like I said, I can send that downloadable too, like learning how to say things and being specific about what you need, in that season can help so that you’re able to get that support and that time to just find those wins and kind of take care of yourself.

[00:28:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: especially from a partner. Because the other thing is you’ve got this partner who’s grieving their life, right? And so both of you can be on a train to destruction together. And so, that gets extra tricky because it is definitely happening to both of you. And so, looking for outside supports, his mom, your mom, and allowing them to come help you out can be really helpful as well.

[00:29:03] Erin Galloway: Yeah. And if you don’t have that village, like I, I totally see that all the time is that families aren’t as nearby anymore. And so, yeah, that’s why sometimes it’s hard, but we have to seek out that village and that community. And there are a lot of great groups out there, all across the United States, that you can join. And you have to find what, like fits you, fits your background, your values, your needs. But there are people out there. And, there are online communities out there, whether that’s through social media or something like the SheMight Discord community, that is kind of a start to building that village

[00:29:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So what can people get from SheMight? Tell us more about what you guys can offer to people if they’ve had an unplanned pregnancy or are just feeling the grief of like, suddenly this seems more unplanned than I thought it was gonna be. What can they get from you guys?

[00:29:49] Erin Galloway: Yeah, so SheMight started as an online blog basically. And so we have a resource library with over 150 articles and downloads that are just kind of to help you walk on your journey. So there’s different resources on there, from you know, Pregnancy stuff to maternity leave. We’re a go-to resource for maternity leave planning, and we would love to support in that.

[00:30:11] We do have a coaching program just to kind of support, helping through that unexpected pregnancy. And yeah, we have our online Discord community. It’s just kind of a space where you can engage with people kind of walking the same journey, share your experience, you know, build connections, ask questions. So that’s our online community. And, we have a couple new things that we’re launching soon we’ll be offering a grant program. Most of the women that we serve are, above the poverty line, and so they’re often not eligible for any government assistance. But we know that just because you’re above the poverty line doesn’t mean, that you don’t need some support and that one big expense can’t really break things for you. And so, we’re offering, a grant program coming soon to just kind of help make the early motherhood journey a little bit easier. And so, that information will be out soon. But yeah, we’re just a community on social media and discord that wants to kind of walk with people on their unexpected journeys.

[00:31:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I think that’s so awesome. I’m gonna put links for you guys, in the show description or down below if you guys are watching on YouTube. But i’m so glad that we’re starting to have this conversation so that people can understand that what they’re feeling isn’t unusual. And they can look just like every other mom that they see at the playground.

[00:31:23] I think everyone envisions themselves as this person who just like Miss Hannigan from, Annie, who’s like “little girls. Little girls.” And that’s not gonna be the case. Those feelings are not gonna extend to every day for the rest of your life.

[00:31:34] Erin Galloway: Yeah. And the more we talk about it, the less shame there is to it. I always tell clients like, shame is the place you don’t wanna go. And so I think we can break the stigma around it and just talk about it and normalize it. Half of the pregnancies in the United States are unexpected. Like people can feel like, oh, I’m actually not alone in this.

[00:31:52] And know that like people are out there to kind of walk with you. And there’s more people out there that are experiencing this than you probably know.

[00:31:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And even beyond that, there’s a lot of people who are like, oh my. Gosh, now I’m pregnant. Even if it was planned, they were off birth control. They were trying, they were, IV fing it. They were spending thousands of dollars for this baby. You can still have a feeling like, oh my gosh, what have I done to myself?

[00:32:17] Erin Galloway: I completely agree.

[00:32:18] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. Erin, thank you so much for coming on. I hope this information’s helpful for people. I hope people will reach out to SheMight ’cause I think that’s such a valuable opportunity. And best of luck to you guys moving forward. I hope that this just grows and grows and people can learn that they’re not alone.

[00:32:33] Erin Galloway: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been an honor.

[00:32:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. I just think people need to understand how many people have these same feelings. And like I said before, we’re not talking about them because it’s not something we really want our kids to end up knowing later on, which I totally understand, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t talk about it in private, even if we’re not sharing it on social.

[00:32:53] So check out SheMight. It sounds like they have so many good resources for you guys. I’m grateful that we have companies like them that can help us out.

[00:33:00] We’ll see you next time on the Pullling Curls podcast.

[00:33:02] Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

Keywords:

unplanned pregnancy, unexpected pregnancy, perinatal mental health, emotional response to pregnancy, pregnancy grief, ambiguous loss, disenfranchised grief, perinatal mood disorders, maternal anxiety, postpartum depression, pregnancy community support, partner reactions, family reactions to pregnancy, pregnancy and career, maternity leave planning, pregnancy timeline, birth control failure, high risk pregnancy, pregnancy symptoms, prenatal class, pregnancy and identity, adjusting to motherhood, parenting support groups, pregnancy support communities, online pregnancy resources, She Might, Pulling Curls Podcast, Pregnancy Nurse, relationships during pregnancy, financial concerns with pregnancy, pregnancy after infertility

The post Unexpected Pregnancy: You’re Not Alone – Processing Grief and Finding Support appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Big thanks to our sponsor Laborie — LifeBubble® Umbilical Catheter Securement System

LifeBubble is made of a Soft Medical Grade Silicone to minimize skin irritation, Reduces the Risk of Catheter Migration and Early Discontinuation, and Protects the Insertion Site of our most vulnerable patients. Find them on Instagram @laborie_ob

Today’s guest is Janene Fuerch, MD.

She is a Clinical Associate Professor of Pediatrics, Division of Neonatal and Developmental Medicine, Associate Director of the Biodesign Innovation Fellowship Program at Stanford University, and Co-Director of Impact1 where she mentors and advises entrepreneurs in the pediatric and maternal space through all aspects of medical device development, from identifying clinical needs to commercialization. Her specific areas of investigational interest include the development and commercialization process of neonatal, pediatric and maternal health medical devices. She is a national leader in neonatal resuscitation, ECMO, device development and has been an AHRQ, FDA and NSF funded investigator. But her work extends outside of the academic realm to industry having co-founded EMME (acquired by Simple Health 2022) an award-winning reproductive health company, medical director for Novonate (acquired by Laborie 2023) a neonatal umbilical catheter securement company and notable consultant for Vitara (EXTEND – artificial environment to decrease complications of prematurity), Laborie, Ceribell, Novocuff and Avanos. Janene is passionate about improving the health of children and newborns through medical device innovation and research.

Links for you:

Previous Laborie Episode on Forceps (260)

Timestamps:

00:00 NICU Challenges: Bonding & Separation

06:55 Choosing the Right Hospital Level

09:47 Bonding with Baby After Separation

14:06 NICU Innovation: Challenges and Opportunities

15:14 Umbilical Catheter Infection Solution

18:17 NICU Bonding and Communication Tips

21:59 Premature Baby Care Innovations

25:04 Prioritizing Investment in Children’s Future

Keypoints:

• Many families are surprised when their baby needs to go to the NICU, so it’s important for all pregnant families to know some basics about what to expect.
• The NICU can range from having just a couple of extra staff in the delivery room to having 15 people if a baby needs help, making the birth experience much more intense and involved.
• Planning ahead with your partner about who will go with the baby in case of separation can help make a stressful situation a little easier.
• About 10% of babies need some help breathing at birth, but most recover quickly; only a small percentage require NICU care beyond the basic interventions.
• NICUs are graded by levels (I-IV), and knowing what level your hospital offers can help families prepare—higher-level NICUs can treat more complex issues but aren’t always necessary for uncomplicated births.
• If your hospital isn’t a level III or IV, babies needing higher-level care may need to be transferred, which could mean temporary separation from parents; hospitals always work to reunite families as quickly as possible.
• NICU nurses are passionate, skilled, and deeply care about the babies and their families, creating a loving and safe environment even during stressful times.
• Parents can support their recovery and milk production by getting rest and using NICU technologies (like webcams) to stay connected—it’s okay to take breaks and trust the NICU staff.
• Emerging technologies like Labry’s Life Bubble are making NICU stays safer and more comfortable, allowing parents to hold their babies even when special catheters are in place.
• Skin-to-skin contact in the NICU is highly beneficial for both babies and parents, helping with bonding, milk production, and even neurodevelopment; parents are encouraged to ask staff about timing and any concerns about wires or tubes.

Producer: Drew Erickson

PUT TRANSCRIPT HERE:

Keywords:

NICU, neonatal intensive care unit, premature babies, neonatologist, types of NICU levels, level 1 NICU, level 2 NICU, level 3 NICU, level 4 NICU, hospital delivery, separation from baby, bonding with baby, skin-to-skin contact, umbilical catheters, infection prevention, NICU innovations, Labry, Life Bubble, technology in NICU, neonatal health, maternal health, NICU nurses, milk production, pumping breast milk, trauma of NICU stays, baby monitoring, necrotizing enterocolitis, artificial womb therapy, premature birth complications, hospital transfer, parental tips for NICU, emotional impact of NICU

The post What Every Pregnant Family Should Know About the NICU appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Big thanks to our sponsor The Online Prenatal Class for Couples — if you’re looking to get prepared with your partner, it’s your best option!

Today’s guest is Dani Morin child safety advocate and CPST on TikTok. Helping parents make informed parenting decisions and providing product research to help moms make the perfect baby registry.

Find her on: Tiktok (@danimorin13) or Instagram (@danimorin_)

Links for you:

Baby Proofing 101: Dani Morin’s Mission for Baby Safety Awareness (her previous episode)

Timestamps:

00:00 “Life-Altering Realization of Parenthood”

05:58 Overcoming Grief and Rediscovery

15:20 “Embracing Parenthood Despite Loss”

20:26 Navigating Fertility Challenges Alone

23:06 “Sperm Donation Normality Perception”

29:51 IVF Expenses and Fertility Misconceptions

33:07 Vanishing Twin Syndrome Explained

40:15 Struggles Changing High-Risk Doctor

43:24 Alone for Life-Changing Ultrasound

50:10 Plane Safety and Medical Workaround

56:11 Birth Center Inequality

01:01:18 Three Key Takeaways from Episode

Keypoints:

• Dani Morin shares her experiences with three very different paths to pregnancy, from an unplanned pregnancy in her 20s to home insemination as a single mom, and eventually a natural conception after getting married.
• The episode highlights the emotional aftermath of Dani’s first pregnancy, including the life-changing impact of her son’s tragic loss and her journey through grief, sobriety, and rediscovering her sense of purpose as a mother.
• Dani describes how early parenting trends and online information influenced her choices—she candidly discusses how she embraced “all-natural” parenting, even using products later shown to be unsafe, and how she has since shifted to an evidence-based approach.
• Hilary and Dani emphasize that unplanned pregnancies are far more common than most people believe, and that being surprised by pregnancy doesn’t make anyone less of a mom.
• Dani details her experience with home insemination using donor sperm as a cost-effective and empowering option for single women or couples with fertility challenges, demystifying and normalizing this choice.
• The conversation explores the stigma, criticism, and unsolicited advice Dani encountered online and in real life regarding her non-traditional paths to motherhood.
• Dani shares practical tips for others considering home insemination, including financial readiness, emotional support, and building a “village” before taking that step.
• The difficulties of navigating healthcare, especially when you’re high risk or dissatisfied with your provider, are explored—Dani discusses real challenges in switching OBs, accessing support, and advocating for yourself during pregnancy.
• Dani and Hilary discuss the limitations—and some dangerous pitfalls—of using AI and online sources for pregnancy advice, and stress the value of trustworthy, evidence-based resources.
• Throughout the episode, the importance of compassion from healthcare providers, honest conversations, and finding the right support network for your unique pregnancy and parenting journey shines through.

Producer: Drew Erickson

names removed 262 Dani Morin — getting pregnant

[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Hey guys. Welcome back to the Pulling Curls podcast. Today, on this episode, we are talking about three different things. So the first one is gonna be different ways to get pregnant and how that affects your pregnancy. Stay tuned. This is gonna be a good one. Also, managing your provider when you don’t really like them, and it’s gonna be real difficult to switch. And then finally, is AI okay to ask pregnancy questions to? So let’s untangle it.

[00:00:21] Hi, I’m Hilary, a Serial over Complicator. I’m also a nurse mom to three and the curly head behind pulling curls and the pregnancy nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with pregnancy and parenting untangled the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:00:51] This episode of the Pulling Curls podcast is sponsored by the online prenatal class for couples. If you are looking to get prepared for your upcoming birth, please join me. It truly is the easy way to get prepared.

[00:01:01] Today’s guest is a child safety advocate and CPST on TikTok. She loves to provide informed research on product safety for parents who are getting their registry together. I wanna introduce today’s guest, Dani Morin.

[00:01:13] Hey Dani. Welcome back to the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:01:16] Dani Morin: I’m so excited to be back. I feel like this time you and I have gotten to know each other so well that it’s just really friends talking to friends. So things may just may get intimate here because we are talking about conception in every different way that you could think.

[00:01:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: not every, I mean you didn’t, so she never did IVF, like full on IVF, right?

[00:01:41] Dani Morin: I never did IVF people get that so confused, which we’ll get into

[00:01:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Okay, so Dani has been pregnant three times in all three very different ways. So most off, I want people to understand that there are different options for people to get pregnant. And your second option, I think is a viable one that a lot of people don’t even consider because they just think it’s too out there. Right? Like, I told your story to my mom and she was like aghast at it. And I was like, why? What is the difference between her going into the office and having it done and doing it at home? But anyway, the just like, a spoiler for everybody. Okay, pregnancy number one, got pregnant.

[00:02:20] Dani Morin: So pregnancy number 1, 24 years old, I was working at a wine company. I was, you know, living the lavish lifestyle of a 24-year-old, kind of like an Alex Earl, right? I was on yachts, I was living in Newport Beach very much up into the party scene. And it was one of those situations where I fell pregnant, having some fun, having fun.

[00:02:45] So the great thing about that pregnancy though is I never, thought I wanted to be a mom and I found out I was pregnant. I was like well into my second trimester, by the way. And I knew, because, you know, I was a big partier, but I could not put down even a glass of wine. I was like vomiting. I’m like, what is going on?

[00:03:05] So I had gone like a month or so without like even having like a sip of alcohol. It was making me so sick. I should have known right then. But I had had a doctor, and so this is for all the girls listening. I had a doctor tell me like, well you have PCOS and a tilted Ute. Not maybe is it a tilted uterus or a tilted?

[00:03:26] A tilted something. So, you know, ’cause.

[00:03:28] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: cervix.

[00:03:29] Dani Morin: A tilted cervix, it was a tilted something. And so I was probably gonna have a tough time ever conceiving. I probably wouldn’t. And I’m like, oh fine by me because you know I’m gonna live in a high rise someday and just be like single and successful. Like that’s just the vibe that I was like putting out 24-year-old me.

[00:03:45] And it’s so crazy because the second I found out I was pregnant with that baby, you know, I go in and like I knew the gender that day. I go in and I know the gender and everything that day. And I had had this like crazy emotion come over me. I cannot even explain it. I have not had this with my other pregnancies, but this crazy emotional connection to this child. And again, we’ve gone into loss and stuff, so I think my other pregnancies, I haven’t had this immediate connection because of my fear of loss. But I had this emotional, crazy connection of just wanting to do everything to make sure that this baby was safe and taken care of.

[00:04:30] And, in the womb and just like the best baby products and all this stuff. And like, I became like, mom 5,000 overnight. Like it was, it was this crazy thing. And I realized at that point I was like, my purpose on this earth is to be a mom. And 10 days prior it was completely opposite. Like, oh, I’m totally fine never having kids. So sometimes things happen that give you a different perspective on life and getting pregnant with my son, Deacon, was just that. Like what I thought my purpose was, was completely different than when I found out I was pregnant. And I’m like, this is my sole purpose and I will do everything to be like the best mom I can.

[00:05:13] Now we’re not gonna dive too much into the grief, but when he was 18 months old, he was strangled by a Baltic amber teething necklace at a negligent daycare. That’s a whole thing. If you guys go on my social media, you could dive more into that. So I lost him around almost 19 months old. And that ruined me, completely shattered me, ruined me. Again, I had just found my purpose and that was like in motherhood and being this boy’s mom. And I was a single mom and I thought I was doing so well with that. And this tragic thing happened and it ruined me. To the point where I, you know, was making really bad choices. I did not know how to grieve. I was medicating with alcohol and other things.

[00:06:01] And I just was like, hoping not to wake up. Like I just, that was just not something I wanted to do anymore, was like live on this earth without being a mother and being that boy’s mom. I did end up getting help for that a couple years into my grief. I just was like, if I’m gonna keep waking up, I don’t want to keep waking up like this.

[00:06:24] Like, there’s has to be more to life than, than this grief and like this pain. And I got my life back together and I just kind of saw things skyrocket. Some of which was sharing my story and opening up about my truth and my story on social media. Believe it or not, I think it was a huge part.

[00:06:42] I mean that and the rehab. But, I think it was a huge part to kind of just living my truth and these are the things that happened and this is how I got pregnant. This is how he passed away. This is the guilt that I’m dealing with. These are the struggles that I have. And now I’m sober going through all of this again.

[00:07:05] But like just in a few years, I literally saw my life skyrocket and it has not stopped. So, I guess now’s the point. We could get into the very controversial subject of my next birth. And you can stop and ask all the questions because I want people to understand that when I am telling you about how I got pregnant with my second child. Who’s now almost five, by the way. All I knew.

[00:07:33] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: really quick. I wanna stop

[00:07:34] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I was thinking it was

[00:07:36] Dani Morin: Okay.

[00:07:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: too, how you were talking about how you like turned into mama bear and you wanted to do like everything natural with your first one, right? It turned on

[00:07:46] Dani Morin: Yes,

[00:07:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: natural cloth diapering all feet on the ground, like in

[00:07:51] Dani Morin: yes. Okay. I’m so glad that you brought that up because there was, and I had gotten vulnerable with you on this topic at that table actually. And that’s just the gems of Mom 2.0. You just start, you know, word vomiting, your vulnerability. But so when I found out I was pregnant, I thought like, all these people are gonna look down on me for how I became pregnant, right?

[00:08:17] And so I’m gonna prove everyone wrong and I’m gonna be the top mama dog out there. Like, I’m gonna have the best rated car seat at the time. I’m gonna, you know, and then in 2015, it was very much the all natural mama, right? So you breastfeed until your kid goes to kindergarten and like you do not put a regular diaper on your kid.

[00:08:41] You cloth diaper. You do not use regular wipes. You make your own wipes, which is like grape seed oil. And at the time, lavender, which we know is like, you never put lavender on like a boy’s genitals. Like I don’t, it was just the crazy thing, the teething, the baltic amber teething necklaces, which were part of the, how he died. Those were like your badge of honor. Like if you were taking your kid out to Target and he had on a baltic amber teething necklace, like those mamas knew you were all natural mama. And it was just this, you know, this whole thing of, everything’s natural. And I really fell into that and I held a lot of guilt about the baltic amber teething necklace for the longest.

[00:09:23] I still do, to be honest. But I have come to terms with the fact that I was doing the best that I could with the information put in front of me and the information that I was consuming. So at the time, and you are an OG blogger, so you know this, but like at the time in 2014- 15, so I was like pregnant in 2014, 2014, 15, 16.

[00:09:49] The blogger life was like a real big thing. We didn’t have really Instagram or we had Facebook, but we didn’t really have all these things going on that we do now. We didn’t have pediatricians making videos. We didn’t have the experts out there like yourself, like making videos and stuff like that. I didn’t even know what the AAP was like. Don’t even ask me what those acronyms stand for. And so we had these mama bloggers and so when we would Google, you know, all natural remedies or safety or whatever, this is what was popping up on our Googles right, was these mom blogs, which are not reputable at all. I could Google right now, like, “can I do meth while pregnant?” And I’ll find something that supports that. Like, it’s out there. Like people anywhere could write anything that they want online. And so I fell into these like all natural trends. And I was not, not that I wasn’t open to the evidence based. It just was not what was being populated in front of me at the time.

[00:10:51] Now I think people definitely know that they can find the evidence or they can find the topics that, that are gonna support their narrative or how they wanna parent and they’re gonna choose the latter. So it’s a little bit different now and we are seeing kind of a similar thing happening in 2025 with the all natural, the anti-vax, anti evidence, anti pediatrician, anti doctor.

[00:11:21] We’re seeing that again now in 2025. But it was pretty heavy in like 2015. And I definitely fell into that trap. And it took me a while to climb out of this crunchy, crunchy, holistic, homeopathic life. It took me even, I was still lingering a little bit when I had my second child. I’m like, come on, you know better.

[00:11:46] Like, you know better. Like, that sounds good, but that is not safe. So, yeah. So I was sucked into that. But, I have come to, I guess, realization and I guess a little bit of peace. I’ll say I’ve come to a little bit of peace with the fact that there wasn’t anything out there saying that the baltic amber teeth necklaces were bad.

[00:12:07] Now it’s all you’re gonna find. But at the time, thousands of kids were wearing ’em. This was the information put in front of me that instead of giving your kids Tylenol, this is going to help. We know it’s a hoax now and it’s a whole thing, but, i, I do feel that even at that time.

[00:12:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: at uh, mom two.

[00:12:24] Dani Morin: I know. And, I do feel like, and we could get into that too. But I do feel like at, at this point, I was the best mom that I could be for that baby with the information that I had.

[00:12:37] And so I’ve actually changed my tone online to how I talk to parents when I see moms using things, and then I’m like, Hey, just so you know, like those aren’t recommended. Here’s some evidence to prove it. And then they’re on the defense and I’m like, you know what? They’re on the defense because they’re doing the best with the information that they got. And that’s an ad for a teething necklace, you know?

[00:12:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:13:00] Dani Morin: Or whatever it might be that’s, a mommy blog about, you know, bed sharing or whatever. So it’s whatever they find. It’s just that like they’re, so, my tone has changed a little bit. But yeah, with the teething necklace at Mom 2.0, I had a ton of people coming up to me saying, you should go tell that mom your story because her baby’s wearing a teeth necklace.

[00:13:21] And I’m like, you should go tell that mom my story and just point to me and say that mom doesn’t have a son anymore because of that necklace and you’re wearing it. I was like, there’s a time and place and I’ll never go up to a mom like at a Starbucks in front of a bunch of people and be like, like in line in front of people, and being like, oh, that necklace is what killed my kid.

[00:13:40] I would never do that. I used to. Now I’ll wait and see like, Hey, can I get that mom alone privately and say something. Mom 2.0 and there’s thousands of moms there and everybody’s feeling judged. Sorry, I have a little acid reflex from the pregnancy.

[00:13:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Shocking.

[00:13:56] Dani Morin: so bad. .

[00:13:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So many people have unplanned pregnancies and I think they all feel like no one else has an unplanned pregnancy. But as a nurse, when you’re going through prenatals, ’cause your doctor asked you at your first appointment, was this planned, unexpected, unwanted. So many people say unplanned and so I never want people to think just because they weren’t planning on this, that somehow they’re a worse mom. And, just in case people are listening who are like, yeah, that’s me, like I’m pregnant and wasn’t expecting it, you’re still an amazing mom. That doesn’t, that doesn’t mean anything about you going forward. Hopefully, I wish somebody had told Dani of 2015 that.

[00:14:33] Dani Morin: You know what’s so funny is, is how I look back at it, is that people were very upset with how I got pregnant, right? But when that baby was here, like that all seemed to go away. And I remember at his funeral, like seeing people show up there and like I was able to pull comments that they left on my pregnancy announcement.

[00:14:54] And I’m like, oh, it’s funny that like you cared about him now that he is alive and now dead. But like when I was pregnant, I was this, this, this, and these names that you left in the comments. But like my whole thing is that, once the babies are here, it does not matter how they came to be.

[00:15:10] Like they are so loved on and, it does not matter. And people have unplanned pregnancies while married. Like it’s, you know what I mean? Like, they happen all the time. These are things that happen. And for me it was the best thing that happened.

[00:15:24] I actually get asked a lot, and I’ve never done a video on this, but I get asked quite a bit, like in one-on-one conversations. Like if you knew that you were going to have a child that was gonna die at 18 months. Like, would you have, you know, because I, I got pregnant in this weird way. Like, would you have done it again?

[00:15:44] And my answer is always 100,000 times over. Like the lessons learned, the value of becoming a mom, learning my purpose, of having this love that I’ve never, ever, ever known or experienced before is a love like that of a child. To be able to do that again, I would 100% sign up for it. Even though it would come with the grief and the alcohol and the rehab and the recovery and all of these other things, I would still choose to do that again.

[00:16:15] So, and that’s just like my story, but it’s something that gets asked. I sat on it for the first time and I’m like, and it was too close to the death, you know what I mean? But now I could sit back almost 10 years later and I’m like, I would do it 100 million times over.

[00:16:31] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s amazing.

[00:16:32] ,

[00:16:32] Then you decided you wanted another one.

[00:16:34] Dani Morin: yeah, so I was a couple years into my sobriety life was going really good.

[00:16:39] I had, at my corporate job gotten rep of the year, a couple years in a row. I was starting to do social media by accident. I was just sharing my story to honestly just help. I have a big thing, like sometimes when you share your truth, you’re helping others, and in turn, I felt like I was doing good in my son’s name and doing the safety advocacy and stuff like that, like.

[00:17:01] I felt like I was making him proud and I was making myself proud and it felt really good. And I just really wanted to be a mom. Now, I had started dating, I was going on numerous dates every single week. It was very weird. I just was, this is just not what I want. And I was like finding myself, like, on these dates, being like, could I settle for this?

[00:17:26] Like, and I’m like, why would you wanna just settle to have. Like, my goal was to be a mom again, and I just don’t know if I was wanting to date and wanting a boyfriend or a husband. And I wasn’t finding like that match. And so I started, I had gone to HRC Fertility. They had a fertility night where they were going over IVF options and, they had this fertility night. So I was like, I’m gonna walk up there. The hospital’s like walking distance to my house. I was like, I’m gonna walk up there and sit in on this and hear about IVF. I really just wanted to know what it would cost to do IVF. So I go in there and it was definitely like a salesy thing.

[00:18:06] Like, this is like a money maker, like I realized. But they went into sperm donors. A lot of people that were there actually were married couples where the guy was sterile. And I had never heard of something like that before. So a lot of people there were trying to figure out. So they had like the sperm donation, I think like California cryo might have been there, like some of the sperm donation.

[00:18:29] There was like, it was a salesy thing, like use our services and stuff. So, I never even knew that that was even a thing. So I did do a consultation with them. I remember the doctor in our meeting, like had, like fallen asleep. Anyways, it was like a weird situation. I was like asking what the steps were gonna be and, I had ordered some sperm from a sperm bank, and I was planning on doing IUI. So I, so there’s IVF, and this is, okay, I’m gonna break this down because this is, everyone’s like, did you choose the gender? I’m like, oh my God, they have no idea what I did. Okay, so IVF is where they take the sperm, they put it into the egg and they insert that into the uterus.

[00:19:15] And you could tell me if I’m using these terms wrong. Okay.

[00:19:18] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: All these

[00:19:18] Dani Morin: IUI. Okay. So IUI is where they kind of take like a catheter and they place the sperm directly as close to the egg as possible. So some men have issues with mobility of sperm to where they got the sperm count, the sperms good and clean and all this stuff.

[00:19:38] But for some reason it’s not swimming as it should to the egg. So IUI sometimes like gives the egg, gives the sperm a better chance to penetrate the egg. So to speak. So they used kind of like a catheter. So that was gonna be the option I did because I’m like, I’ve gotten pregnant before. I don’t think I need IVF.

[00:19:57] Well, we were doing this whole thing and because I had, you know, tilted cervix or tilted uterus and PCOS because I’d been diagnosed with that before I was using that and to get IUI covered by insurance. Well, you cannot get IUI covered by insurance until you’re 35 years old, which I did not know.

[00:20:16] So what I thought was gonna cost me like $2,500 was gonna cost me close to 12,000. And I was like, that’s gonna be a negative. I’m crying in the office and I’m like, my whole plan, you know, I was supposed to start the medications, which are on their own like $2,000. So, this nurse kind of like pulls me aside and she’s like, ” you should go on Facebook and join the lesbian communities and they’ll tell you the ways to have a baby on your own at home.” And I’m like, “psychotic? No.” So I had gotten in the car with my mom and I was like, “yeah, I had this idea of you know, getting pregnant on my own, but it’s not gonna work out.”

[00:21:00] And my mom had kind of said something like in a joking fashion where she was like, “what if though you like found somebody and like, you know, friendly or something and you could like get pregnant that way.” So I was like thinking, I’m like, and she’s like, I mean, don’t do that, but like, she’s like, I know, it’s just, this is like what you want this so bad?

[00:21:25] And I went home and like I slept on it and I’m like. No, but for real, like how are the lesbians, like how are they having babies? Are they all going through IVF-IUI? So I find a lesbian group and they’re like, join this group, which is, home insemination is what it’s called. And shout out to the lesbian community for opening your arms wide open and teaching me the ways of how this works.

[00:21:53] There’s a science to, I mean, they taught me the way. So I was on the home insemination group. I ended up finding single mom by choice group. Now I’ve not been on Facebook since probably five years. But I found, single mom by choice group. I found home insemination group. And the home insemination is where, now some people find like live partners that will produce sperm into a cup and then they inseminate it more like in a live situation. I had ordered sperm already, so I just had that then shipped to my house instead of to the IUI place and or to the fertility clinic. And I did it myself. So there was a whole science behind it. You know, you let it thaw for 20 minutes and then it’s basically like a syringe, so smaller than a tampon and you just put it up there and you wait 30 minutes.

[00:22:46] And I got pregnant on the first try. First vile, first try. But these women walked me through it, exactly what to do. And then I thought it would be a good idea to, after I was like nine months pregnant, to make a video of how I did it. And the internet had some things to say. And it’s so funny because I had been researching how I was gonna do this for about seven months before I pulled the trigger.

[00:23:14] So all I thought in my mind, so I had gone to the fertility clinic where I met, there was all these like couples there where the husbands were sterile. So everything was about sperm donation stuff. So in my mind, I had gotten so wrapped up in this that in my mind the only way people were conceiving these days was sperm donation in my, in my mind.

[00:23:36] Like, so when people were like, “oh my God, this is shocking.” I’m like, is it like, this is pretty normal? Because what I’d been going through and like what I was like presented with and the groups that I was in, like this was the most normal thing. So I had to take a step back and be like, people are shocked about this. You know, and I made it very clear in this video, the first thing I said was, I am reviewing my finances because mind you, I got knocked up with my first child, young, in my twenties. And although at the time I thought I was making a lot of money. Oh, you do not equate for your $1,500 of daycare every month and $500 of groceries, clothes, and diapers, or whatever you need.

[00:24:19] And you are not equating for all this other money of this other human that you have to raise. When I had my son, Deacon, I did have to move home. There was no way I was gonna be able to pay rent and then also put him in daycare and work and pay for all these things. Like, so the first thing I ever did in that video was I was like, you have to look at your finances first and foremost.

[00:24:41] Like the last thing you want is now. I figured it out with my son, Deacon. I moved in with my mom and it was great and I love that she was a huge part of his life and my sister was living at there at the time and she like, I love that it worked out that way, but I want people to know. A lot of people just account for how much it costs to get pregnant. They’re not thinking of childcare, groceries, clothing, school. They’re not thinking of all this other stuff. So I’m like, you need to think about this and make sure if you are going to purposely do this, that you do it with intent and that you are set up to the best of your ability? What? Like financially, emotionally.

[00:25:19] I also talked about, I had a lot of help. Like I had my mom, like I knew I was gonna have a village of support already. So I just gave people, I was like, before I dive into how I did this, like these are things that you really need to think about. But everyone’s biggest thing was like, my son was gonna end up in jail because statistics without a father, you know, all this stuff.

[00:25:43] And I’m like, well, those are statistics, so some people don’t end up in jail. You know what I mean? Like, but there was a lot of that. Now my son, I did make sure had a father figure from the day he was born, which was my brother, who is a huge part of my son’s life and has been since that day. And so, I did make sure that I had thought all of these things through, and I think when I made the video, it was at the time, you can, tiktoks are only a minute.

[00:26:12] So my video was 58 seconds. So it’s like, how do you explain all this in 58 seconds? And a lot of people in the comments were like, you should have just, you know, gotten drunk and like hooked up with someone. I’m like, no, I’ve done that before. Like, this is the better option for me at this point.

[00:26:28] So, in the comments I was like, really catty and funny about it, which is what I think made the video go more viral because people are like, oh, these comments are not even phasing this girl. Like, these people are writing vulgar, vulgar, vulgar things. But what I realized, I’m like, they don’t understand also.

[00:26:46] So I had not told people that I lost a child before I was gonna take that to the grave actually, when I had first posted this like video on TikTok. I had very much opened up on the Facebook and some of the other apps. But TikTok is its own thing. So, people were confused like, what just makes?

[00:27:03] And I’m like, I was a mother before. Like, I know what I was getting into. So that’s how I was able to plan for this. Which gave me another leg up, just kind of on motherhood on what to expect. So I had to kind of come on the TikTok and tell people like, “Hey, this is kind of what happened and why I made this choice. And everybody’s choice is different.” So since I’ve posted that video, I’ve had a lot of moms and women reach out to me. One mom reached out, I wanna say she lived maybe Atlanta or something. She’s a lawyer, she’s 40. She got out of a relationship for seven years. It was not going anywhere. She realized this was not her person.

[00:27:42] She had no idea that she could get pregnant this way. She was planning on doing $40,000 for IVF. And like, she’s onto her second baby, single mom by choice. She’s successful. She has these two kids now. And her life is very fulfilled in that way. There is another mom, I think she’s onto her second baby.

[00:28:00] She’s from Florida. She had reached out. I had kind of taught her the ways. And, you know, she had all this support from her dad and her family. And I think she’s now on her second baby too. But like, already successful in her mid thirties. And was feeling like that pull to motherhood. But was like, “oh, I thought I was gonna have to save up 40, $45,000 for IVF. Like, I had no idea that this was an option.” A lot of girls were like, “thank you so much. Like I’ve been with my boyfriend, he’s about to propose and I hate him, but I just like really wanna be a mom.” And I’m like, okay, don’t bring me into this. But like, I gave women another option to take life into your own hands, essentially responsibly, I hope.

[00:28:43] Now there would be 20 year olds reaching out to me and I’m like, live your life. No, I’m not even gonna entertain you. Live your life. You know,

[00:28:53] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Dani Morin: wanna be a, I’m like, you have no idea what you’re getting yourself into. I’m like, live your life. Hit me up when you’re 30. You know?

[00:28:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Right.

[00:29:00] Dani Morin: So, ,

[00:29:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: it’s such a viable option

[00:29:01] Dani Morin: yeah.

[00:29:02] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: ‘ cause there’s plenty of people who out there find out their partner sperm can’t make it up there or they’re sterile and could try this and save so much money. Right. There’s, there’s a lot of people

[00:29:13] Dani Morin: Yes. Well, and I think a lot of people just don’t know it as an option or they think it’s an unsafe option. Now, I did have a fertility clinic stitch my video. And, they’re like, this is not a safe option. Like you definitely should, you know, come in and do IVF and IUI. It’s the safer option. So like I had on my other account, my Zippy Mom account, I was like, “oh, can you explain like why, what’s unsafe about, about it seems just like sex essentially.”

[00:29:48] And They could not come up with really a way except I realized, I was like, okay, so you’re just like hoping that the moms will spend. You don’t want moms that know that they’re fertile to not spend the 12,000 or $45,000 on IVF. Like, so I think people get in their minds, like going to a doctor’s office is just probably safer.

[00:30:06] But sex and this, it’s the same thing. And so they could not, so what their video back to my comment was, ” well you’ll have a better chance.” And I’m like, if you’re fertile, you’re fertile. You know? So, I got pregnant on the first try, you know, and I’ve clearly that doctor that told me tilted cervix, PCOS thing, you can’t get pregnant. That was a lie. So if, if doctors are telling you guys that just, don’t rely on that as truth. And now I’m pre,

[00:30:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: either. Breastfeeding, A lot of

[00:30:35] Dani Morin: yeah.

[00:30:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you can’t get pregnant while you’re breastfeeding. Wrong.

[00:30:38] Dani Morin: Yeah, wrong. So many, that’s probably the robot, saying that. But yeah, so now I’m pregnant with twins, which I also got pregnant pretty quickly. I did have one cycle that I was like tracking ahead of time, but it was the cycle I took out the IUD, so I’m like, maybe that counts, maybe that doesn’t.

[00:30:56] There’s, you know, six week period that you gotta let that rest. But, and then I, I’m pregnant now, twins, so there’s that.

[00:31:05] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: clo or

[00:31:05] Dani Morin: But

[00:31:06] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: right? No. No egg dropping

[00:31:08] Dani Morin: no, so, even when I got pregnant via home insemination, I didn’t take any medication. I took, well, I will tell you what I took. I did vitamin D, I was taking a prenatal vitamin DI was taking something called avocitil, which was for PCOS, which I’d been taking for a while.

[00:31:30] And I was taking something called Vitex. All of these things you could get at Sprouts. Okay, that’s just your regular supplements. Now, Vitex. So my second pregnancy with my son Rett, who’s now almost five. that was actually a twin pregnancy, believe it or not. Vitex I found does the same thing, similar to Clomid.

[00:31:52] You should not be taking Vitex if you don’t need it. So Vitex is for people that are not getting a lengthy enough luteal phase. So this is where I was still kind of dipping into that crunchy stuff. So, Vitex supposedly will help supposedly, and I don’t know how much truth there is to this.

[00:32:12] If your luteal phase is not long enough, it could lengthen your luteal phase and get you more regular period. I did notice it was giving me more of a regular period. I will say that apparently if you do not need it, so if your period’s already regular, you already have a lengthy enough luteal phase that it could cause you to ovulate multiple times.

[00:32:33] So it could do something similar to Clomid. So I did not know that and I must have ovulated twice. Now it was Covid at the time, so you did not have your first doctor’s appointment until 10 weeks. So when I had gone in for my, ultrasound, they thought it was like a sub chronic hematoma, A SCH. And then they looked further into it and they’re like, oh my gosh, it was another baby.

[00:33:01] Just, it had, it looked like it stopped growing around seven weeks. So I was like, well, what happens? What, so what does it do? And they’re like, well, it’s called a vanishing twin syndrome. Which statistically, accounts for, I think it was like 42% of twin pregnancies equate for I could be off on that number, vanishing twin syndrome.

[00:33:22] So it’s very common. And a lot of times moms when they get to their appointment, don’t even know that there had been two babies in there. So, as you can imagine, I get pregnant now and I find out very early on I’m having twins. And I’m just like, I’m not gonna believe that because I know the statistics and I’ve researched this before, ’cause I’ve gone through this before.

[00:33:43] So, finally at like, I think I was like 13 or 14 weeks, and she’s like, have you like told your family and and your friends? And I was like, no. She’s like, well, you’re past vanishing twin syndrome. So I guess now is the point I tell you like, you’re having twins. Like, unless something happens, which like, you know, something like this is, these are twins now.

[00:34:05] Like you could tell people if you want that you’re having twins. But still in my mind I’m like thinking, well, I’ve gone through that. I didn’t go through that. Like I found out at my ultrasound like, here’s one baby that at there was another one, you know?

[00:34:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:34:20] Dani Morin: So, and then when I got pregnant this time with twins, I was doing my research again and it was just like the perfect storm.

[00:34:28] So if you’ve been pregnant with twins before and you’re over the age of 35. You’re like three times more likely for that to happen again. So it was just kind of like a perfect storm situation, I guess. I mean, I just don’t know. We look at it honestly like a crazy miracle. You know, they can’t really explain it.

[00:34:50] Ours was a split embryo, so it’s just a crazy situation. And we’re so excited. I fight the paranoia. Me and you talk about this. I have called for those of you guys listening, Hilary in hysterics, just over my

[00:35:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That wasn’t hysterics. Does that make you feel any better? That

[00:35:13] Dani Morin: was.

[00:35:13] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I don’t even call that hysterical.

[00:35:15] Dani Morin: When I was leaving you the voice messages and I’m like, hold on a second. I’m just like, I didn’t even get it together.

[00:35:24] It’s just like, I think the fear, I’m not vibing with the, and we could get into that with my doctor. And I just like,

[00:35:33] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: should mention you

[00:35:34] Dani Morin: yeah, you got

[00:35:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: between,

[00:35:36] Dani Morin: married

[00:35:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: re

[00:35:36] Dani Morin: in between. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So this pregnancy now, so I did meet somebody. Yeah, this pregnancy now natural with my husband. So 19 months ago I met a boy and I was set up with a guy that’s, we have mutual friends, we are set up. He lived across the country at the time. And so I thought it would be a good idea to fly out there and that we would have this 10 day road trip back to California where he would live in his friend’s back house until I let him move into the house. And a month after that, we were engaged.

[00:36:12] And eight months after that we were married. And a month after that we became pregnant. So this guy was just this single man bachelor in Boston, living his life. And now he’s essentially a married father of three.

[00:36:26] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Two years later, right

[00:36:28] Dani Morin: And he loves every minute of it. He’s such a good dad and he is. I had something a scare, I guess. A scare. It’s, I could talk to you if we could talk about that also, but, the other day, and he’s just like immediately hitting up the doctor, looking things up and like he’s so into the pregnancy and so into being Rhett’s dad. And reading the books on discipline and, you know, things like in the baby books. And he has like, just accepted this whole thing and he loves it. And so I, it’s been really fun. It’s been really fun doing this with a partner. So, now I will say the funniest part about this, and this may be TMI. The funniest part about this, so I got knocked up, so I was single. And then I did home insemination single. I’ve never been in a position where you are intimate during pregnancy. And I’m like, can you hurt the baby? Like, how does it, and he is like, well, what? And I’m like, no, I’ve never had to do this in pregnancy before. I’ve always been single. I’ve never, like, you know, and so I have, some of this stuff is also brand new to me.

[00:37:37] Like I’m looking up like, does it, can you. Like pop your amniotic fluid sack. Like, I’m like, I don’t all these. I know it sounds so crazy, but these are things that now as a third time mom, I’m having to look up for the first time, which is just hilarious.

[00:37:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Well, I think that happens on every baby. All of a sudden you have new concerns ’cause you’re older or your other one did something. Also not an unknown concerns. Many people have asked me that question, so I don’t think I have a post,

[00:38:04] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:38:05] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: about that on my site, but pretty close.

[00:38:08] Dani Morin: I’m shocked you don’t have a post. I’m shocked you don’t have a post specific to that because when I reached out to you at, was I 14 weeks pregnant and I go, why am I lactating? Am I going into labor?

[00:38:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: like, girl, I totally have a post on that.

[00:38:26] Dani Morin: And you sent me a post so fast, like you were faster than the robot at that point. Like you were like, this is actually completely normal.

[00:38:34] Go to Walmart and get some nursing pads because this is your life now. So, yeah, so I’m currently wearing the nursing pads. It was the craziest thing and it wasn’t anything that triggered it. I just, like, my breast had been very tender. And I was like, looked down and I’m like, why are my nipples like I had on a gray t-shirt and I’m like, what is going on?

[00:38:58] To me? I was like, this has to be a sign. I’m going into preterm labor. You know, which is like my biggest fear and a common fear with twins. So I guess it’s normal. And so it’s just like what I’m gonna have to be like dealing with. I’m not collecting milks. So some people I’ve told, they’re like, oh girl, put that in the freezer.

[00:39:15] And I’m like.

[00:39:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: first

[00:39:16] Dani Morin: Hilary gave me the, Hilary gave me the advice to chill for a little bit, and we will consider doing that later in pregnancy.

[00:39:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: in your third

[00:39:23] Dani Morin: So,

[00:39:24] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: we start doing that.

[00:39:25] Dani Morin: yeah. So, yeah, so that’s where we’re at now, but, so far so good. I think with my pregnancy, I’m not having the O-B-G-Y-N experience that I have had in the past, nor that I thought that I was gonna have.

[00:39:41] So that’s kind of been difficult. But thank God for you and for some other people that I could like, rely on for questions and concerns, so, yeah.

[00:39:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: a lot of people online will just say, if you don’t like your provider, just switch. And every time I see that, I’m like, it’s so much more complicated than that. For some people, they live rural.

[00:39:58] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:39:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: There is one OB in that town and they have to go several hours to a new ob. So that’s not fair to those people.

[00:40:05] And if you’re high risk, you kind of get egged

[00:40:07] Dani Morin: Mm.

[00:40:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: into one, one practice. ’cause you need a referral or your insurance only covers one, you know, fetal medicine group. It’s tricky.

[00:40:15] Dani Morin: Well, so kind of what I had learned, and so I had learned a couple things, going through this process of trying to change doctors and just so everybody knows I have yet to be successful. I have one workaround that I have to wait till 18 weeks to try to get out of this situation that I’m in. But I am high risk.

[00:40:37] So I am gestational hypertension, I’m geriatric and I have twins. So kind of how it was explained to me, was that, you know, these doctors, they don’t. They wouldn’t wanna take a risky transfer. Now, if you go to their office and you’re risky, you know, you’re already their patient, they don’t wanna take a risky transfer because for every baby that does not make it, they kind of get a mark on their name a little bit. So they’re like, you’re someone’s already dealing with you. Don’t bring that over here. You know, you already have an MFM and, and a doctor team over there. Like, don’t be bringing that over. Like, we don’t want that. So, it would have been different. So one doctor told me, like, yeah, it would be different if you were, yeah, third successful pregnancy, you had two, you know, positive vaginal birth and this is your third pregnancy and everything is going good.

[00:41:28] Singleton, like, no risks associated with this. Like, yeah, come on over. This is a different situation. And so the transfers are not happening now. I was a little spoiled. I had two doctors in Orange County. I went to St. Jude with my son, Deacon. Phenomenal experience. Great office. Traumatic birth, but that’s because I was trying to be the all natural mom, and I should have listened to the doctor and made different decisions.

[00:41:55] That’s all on me. I’m not gonna look back on that. But my second birth, I was at Hoag, which is just, it’s the mastros of all birthing places, hospitals. Like the way they treat you, the way the doctors treat you. So how it works there is, if you have any concern whatsoever, any concern like.

[00:42:18] A twinge of, and now you’re, and you have gotten it in your mind that your baby has passed in your 10 weeks. Like if you have anything, you just walk right on in there. So you have your own provider and you walk into the doctor’s office, but there is 12 other OBGYNs there. Someone will check you out real quick.

[00:42:36] The high-end ultrasound is right there. The LabCorp is right there that does your blood. Your pelvic floor therapy is in the same office and, the hospital’s across the street, if you needed to waltz over there for something. The NS STS are in there and you have your own private room and a tv ’cause you know you’re in there for hours or two.

[00:42:55] It is a premium experience. This situation, I found out I was having twins. I was so sick with morning sickness, she sent me to that imaging center to get, your ultrasound. So you go to the hospital to get your ultrasounds done. And, I was in there and it was an ultrasound tech who was giving me information out of her scope of practice that she shouldn’t have been.

[00:43:17] And two students all taking turns trans badging me, ultrasound wise. And guess who was not in that room? My husband, because it’s against their policy. And I found out one of the biggest pieces of news of my life alone, while two 20-year-old students trans vaged me. In a ultrasound room for 45 minutes.

[00:43:42] And it was one of those things, again, I did not know that this was not normal because I posted a video and people were like, oh, how did your husband take finding out you’re having twins? And I was like, oh, I have a video of it. ’cause I had walked out in the waiting room and I showed my husband the, the ultrasound and people are like, “Jeremy ultrasounds aren’t scary. You could go in there with her.” And I’m like, “oh no, he’s not allowed to come in.”

[00:44:02] And people are like, dude, that’s basic standard of care is for him to be in there with you during this news. Like, what if he found out bad news? Then I had all these girls riding me and being like, oh my gosh. The ultrasound center, I found out I was having a still birth there alone while my husband was in the waiting room and I had to do the, where I walk out and shake my head at 28 weeks that we lost our baby alone.

[00:44:24] And I’m like, oh my God. Like this is insane. And they’re like, well that’s just our policy, like go to another hospital. And I’m like, no. See, that’s the thing. I would love to, I can’t. And then I’ve just had some issues. So with the gestational hypertension of it all, it’s something very scary ’cause it could turn into preeclampsia.

[00:44:45] Now I have never had preeclampsia, but I’ve had gestational hypertension in both of my pregnancies. Could it be stress? And I have the high blood pressure, who knows what it’s from. But, it’s something that my previous doctor took extremely seriously. Starting at like, I think maybe even 24 weeks, I was having two nst every, every week.

[00:45:05] She took it extremely seriously. I slept overnight in the hospital twice during that pregnancy just because they’re like, “Hey, we’re gonna just do some further monitor.” Like they take it extremely seriously. And I was talking to you ’cause I’m like, usually I start this gestational hypertension protocol around like 10 or 12 weeks from what I can remember.

[00:45:26] Like, I’m shocked. My doctor is like not having me start this, knowing my history. Well, I had, had, I tracked my blood pressure. So I had, tracked my blood pressure for five days and I was on five days of it being high. And I put in the little, ’cause you can’t just go to the office, you have to do it in the health record.

[00:45:43] So I put in the health record like, Hey, I’m concerned about my blood pressure. And they’re like, well, when you were here four weeks ago, it was fine. So that’s what we’re going off of. And I’m like, that’s great. Now we’re here and I’m having five days of high blood, consistent high blood pressure. I’m worried about it.

[00:45:58] I’m also concerned that I haven’t been starting the high blood pressure protocol. Which if you guys don’t know, it’s, it’s essentially baby aspirin. Now, my other doctor, the baby aspirin, I went to the pharmacy, I gave a prescription and they handed it to me. You could buy it over the counter, but that’s just how it worked in the past.

[00:46:15] So she’s like, well, if you feel that strongly about starting it, go ahead and get some. And I’m like, get some what? And she said, and this is via chat. She said, get some LDA. And I’m like, what’s LDA? She’s like, low dose aspirin. And I’m like, milligrams. Like, I’m like having like Why am I having to ask this?

[00:46:33] Like, she’s like, yeah, if that’s what you want. I’m like, okay. So I go and get it. I start that and I felt confident in starting it. ’cause you and I had talked and also because in my previous pregnancies, that’s when I started at 10 weeks. So finally like I’m just getting to a point where I’m like, I feel a little bit in the dark with this pregnancy. I want a meeting with the doctor.

[00:46:57] And so we call a meeting with the doctor. And from what I had heard from people who are kind of in like hospital administration, is that, which is my sister. She’s like, I am certain your doctor’s gonna be very much on your side. I am certain your doctor also doesn’t like the imaging center’s situation of not letting your husband come in.

[00:47:16] She was like, sometimes it’s not the doctors that you should be mad at. It’s just the procedures and like what’s in place. And the protocols in place. And like, I guarantee my sister’s like, you’re gonna go in there and she’s gonna be very empathetic to how you’re feeling and maybe probably agree with you on some things.

[00:47:34] And she’s like, these doctors are overwhelmed. They’re, you know, the hospitals don’t always listen to the doctors and so I think she’s really gonna have your back. So I went in thinking like, I’m gonna be met with some compassion here. That’s what I’m thinking. So I go in and I’m very nice. I’m like, I did the shit sandwich. So, I went in and I was like, I wanna start off by saying that your office has been phenomenal. Like, I love the women that work here. I really appreciate the chat feature, even though I’m used to being able to just go in and see a doctor, but like, okay, I like the chat feature. I’m like, I do have some concerns where I’m not sure if I’m getting the level of care that I deserve.

[00:48:11] And she immediately goes into the defense and she’s like, she’s like, I’ve been doing this for 23 years. I answer you back in the chat. Like, if you need something, you have to ask. Like, if you don’t ask, I’m like, I don’t think that I should be asking, about low dose aspirin for high blood pressure considering I’ve had it in all of my pregnancies. And it’s definitely recorded. And you know about that. She’s like, you’re having twins. You should be taking two. And I was like, so that’s my husband steps in and he’s like, okay, so this right here is the first we’re hearing of this. And at this point I’m like, 15 weeks. So this right here is the first we’re hearing of, she should be taking two.

[00:48:48] I’m like, do I take two prenatals? Do I take 2D HA? Like what else should I be taking? Like, and I’m starting to write stuff down. I’m like, this is the first time you’ve spent more than five minutes with me. So I honestly don’t, is there anything else I should know? And she’s like, well, just ask, what do you want to know?

[00:49:01] And I’m like, I want you to treat me like this is my first pregnancy. I’m like, I also have concerns with my husband not being there in my ultrasounds. She’s like, that’s not on me. Take that up with the hospital. I’m like, it is on you. You sent me there, you sent me to a place that doesn’t allow my husband, so no, it is on you.

[00:49:21] And so we never met, and she’s like, well, if you wanna transfer, you know, good luck with that. Go to the front and I’ll try to do it. And I’m like, okay, well you and I both know I’ve already been trying to transfer and I’m not having luck. So at this point. I’m gonna see the nurse practitioner until my birth.

[00:49:39] You unfortunately are gonna be the one to slice and dice me open. Just land that plane with all souls on board, including my own please. Like that’s, at this point, just land that plane. I don’t care if there’s turbulence. I don’t care if, if, you know, an engine goes out, okay. All souls must be safe when we land and just land that plane.

[00:50:02] And that’s kind of where we have left it. So I did my research with my robot that there is a little bit of a workaround. So, when I start seeing the MFM, if the MFM sees something. In my ultrasound with twin pregnancies, like the MFMs, they go through everything with a fine tooth comb and almost 100% of the time they find something, a shadow, a spot or whatever.

[00:50:28] I can request a second opinion and I can request that second opinion at the hospital in which I would want to go to. And when they take me in to do that second opinion, I’m kind of registered as a patient. So I’m going to, try to do that workaround, possibly. So that’s kind of where we’re at, at from here.

[00:50:49] Again, that’s what my robot’s saying.

[00:50:51] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: should not be having, we’re getting to the robot. Don’t you worry. You should not have to ask your doctor about aspirin. That should be one of the first things that providers are getting on that first appointment is going through all the questions about aspirin, because there’s a lot, like some of it’s if your mom or your sister had high blood pressure, which wouldn’t be related to your health history at all.

[00:51:11] So they have to go through a list of a few questions, which, by the way, you were having twins. They, they don’t even have to go through the questions because that’s one of the ones. But people, I get frustrated when the doctor’s like, well, you should just ask. And I’m like, well, how on earth are people gonna know to ask? Like, that doesn’t make any sense to me, but God bless.

[00:51:29] Dani Morin: Yeah, so I mean, I was kind of being catty towards the end of the situation at this meeting, and I was like, should I ask you now for like maybe an anesthesiologist at my C-section? Like, what else do I need to ask for? Like, I was like, I just asked. Had, and I feel like there is a way, and if providers are listening to this, I just want, and I made a video coming out of this meeting and I will post it after I have my birth.

[00:51:57] There was a way she could have addressed the situation and never admitted that she was wrong or that any of this is bad. There was a way she could have done that, and that’s with a single ounce of compassion. If she could have mustered up the courage to even have a single ounce of compassion. I’m gonna go to a ob GYN, this is on my list. I’m gonna pitch the OB GYN conferences, and I’m gonna go up there as a patient and be like, here’s a way that you can address the concerns of your patient without ever saying that you’re wrong. Had I walked in there and said, I have some concerns. I feel like I’m not being heard. I’m not giving enough time.

[00:52:42] Had you been up there and just said, “I am so sorry that you are feeling this way. I would never want one of my patients who’s pregnant to have to feel this way. Let’s discuss some ways that I could better help you and we could better help each other in communicating so you get the best care possible.”

[00:53:03] Do you see how I just talked right there where I never said like, I am so sorry that I did that. I should have done better. That is totally on me and like, I should, you know, I should be sending you to a different ultrasound. Never she had, she just gone in there and been like, I’m so sorry you are feeling this way.

[00:53:20] I never want my patients to feel this way. Let’s discuss some things together and be a team here. Do you see how a tiny bit of compassion could have changed the entire directory of the situation

[00:53:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah,

[00:53:35] Dani Morin: it, and,

[00:53:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: so

[00:53:36] Dani Morin: it, it was just not there.

[00:53:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: or any customer service business. Obviously she don’t care about the customer service. Have you watched The PIT yet?

[00:53:44] Dani Morin: I haven’t Is that on Paramount?

[00:53:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s on Max,

[00:53:49] Dani Morin: think it’s on paramount.

[00:53:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: talking about patient satisfaction scores, which can be frustrating as a healthcare provider because you’re like, you’re not giving us enough staff. That is literally why our patient satisfaction scores suck. So anyway,

[00:54:00] Dani Morin: And that’s what I think my sister was trying to get at was like they’re, the doctors are dealing with a lot too, and they’re very much like on the team of the patient. So I went in there thinking she’s gonna be on the team of the patient and just be like, Hey, there’s some stuff going around. We are fighting for changes right now.

[00:54:15] And like, you know, you got caught up anything. Except she was like, I’ve been doing this 23 years. No one has ever had a problem with me. This is a you thing. Like, and I was like, oh my God. So I’m just hoping that when she sews up my C-section scar that it’s like somewhat in a line. Like, I just hope it’s not like a squiggly mark, like she’s all, I’m gonna show her.

[00:54:38] Like I just, you know, and she’s a professional and I just, one of my good friends just had twins, same doctor, same c-section, super successful babies. Didn’t spend one day in the nicu. She had the best care there. It was the best team of people. She felt very confident. And so therefore, I’m kind of like holding onto that right now.

[00:54:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:54:59] Dani Morin: I was sent to this doctor by everybody in my community. Everyone, and I’m not gonna say the doctor’s name, but everybody was like. Like this person, she’s the best. Oh my God, there’s no better doctor. And what I realized is that I have been eating at Mastros with my pregnancies

[00:55:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:55:18] Dani Morin: the, and some of these girls, they don’t know anything better than McDonald’s.

[00:55:22] And so to them it’s been a great experience. But I think for me, when I’ve had this high standard of care, and now I’m at a situation where I’m like, but this seems different. You know, not that it’s bad, it’s probably just normal. But I don’t think I’m asking for a lot to just tell me the medications I should be on for something that could cause preeclampsia.

[00:55:44] You know what I mean?

[00:55:45] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s a real push in the United States right now. It’s not like this is something weird. I wanna,

[00:55:50] Dani Morin: Yeah. So we’ll see when this comes out.

[00:55:53] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s hard to watch videos of people like at birth centers that are like lighting and a tub in the room and, you know, special music you can play. Whereas I’ve worked at birth centers that, we were lucky if the, the tile was like intact, right?

[00:56:06] Like, you know,

[00:56:08] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:56:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Or that there weren’t roaches falling out of the ceiling, which has happened at some of the hospitals that I worked at. And so sometimes when I watch these, it’s really hard to compare like situations just because it varies so much. And I know even in the south it’s even worse than where I am at. So,

[00:56:25] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:56:25] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s always tricky when you compare doctors and stuff like that. But Dani, I have also been talking about how she uses her, AI robot to answer her pregnancy questions. And I’ve always been like. Stop! I am your AI robot. Just text me. And you’re like, no, I have my AI robot trained on the right sites or whatever. what are some things you’re, you’ve

[00:56:44] Dani Morin: What are some things.

[00:56:45] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: robot, and I’m gonna tell you if that’s safe to ask Orate. know what aspirin would’ve been safe to ask? I’ll give it that probably.

[00:56:53] Dani Morin: Okay, so one thing that I asked my robot last night is, is it okay to get Botox and laminate? Not that I’m going to, but I’m seeing pregnant girls and their faces look near perfect, and I know that ain’t natural. And I put that on my stories and people were like, yeah, no, it’s totally fine now. And I’m like, Hmm.

[00:57:14] So you’re saying, no,

[00:57:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I think it’s a no, as far as I know, Botox is a no, just because they don’t know if that could get into your bloodstream or something like that. I don’t understand brow lamination, so I don’t know how, how that could accumulate in your body. The internet told me to write a post on that, but I was so out of my, have

[00:57:33] Dani Morin: it’s too new.

[00:57:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I don’t know. I don’t know.

[00:57:36] Dani Morin: It’s too, it’s too new.

[00:57:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: for a long time they didn’t even massage pregnant women because they were worried that they could hurt the baby, which now I’m like, come on. Like we gotta,

[00:57:45] Dani Morin: What about, how do you tell your twins apart?

[00:57:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I’ve seen parents put a little sharpie on one of the toenails, like the big

[00:57:54] Dani Morin: You said that and I feel like that’s a good, okay.

[00:57:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah,

[00:57:59] Dani Morin: so I,

[00:58:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: polish

[00:58:00] Dani Morin: so,

[00:58:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: off harder. Like it comes off easier. Fingernail polish,

[00:58:05] Dani Morin: okay, so this is another one that I, freaked out over was what’s the difference between discharge or my water breaking? My robot told me like, the,

[00:58:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I have 16 articles about that.

[00:58:17] Dani Morin: can you send those to me? Because I had a scare this weekend. I like sat down and I felt like, what was like a gush or something and I immediately called the doctor and was like, I think my water broke.

[00:58:28] It turned out it was a more of a milky texture and that’s what my robot said. It would be more of a milky texture in which it, in which it was,

[00:58:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. I have

[00:58:36] Dani Morin: um.

[00:58:37] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: is it pee? What, what does it feel like when my water breaks? Because most people will feel a pop. I would say 70% of the people I say they feel a pop when their water breaks. So that sometimes can help people reassure. But the big one is that your water just

[00:58:51] Dani Morin: Is that

[00:58:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: out. If it’s

[00:58:54] Dani Morin: Yes.

[00:58:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: not. It.

[00:58:55] Dani Morin: So that’s what I have.

[00:58:57] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. So I

[00:58:58] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:58:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: just, when I was writing articles based on Google searches, I would just do AI for fun. Like, I was like, can you drink wine during pregnancy? And AI was like, absolutely. The antioxidants in wine, I would suggest two to three glasses a day. And I was like, strong work ai, really, really good work.

[00:59:14] And then I wrote one is sour cream safe during pregnancy? And it was like, absolutely not. Your risk of listeria goes up with sour cream. And I was like, pasteurized

[00:59:23] Dani Morin: Oh my gosh. I feel like pasteurization is okay

[00:59:27] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: no

[00:59:28] Dani Morin: anyways.

[00:59:29] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: cream? Totally fine. Yeah. Also, you

[00:59:31] Dani Morin: Okay. Okay.

[00:59:31] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you get listeria. Maybe you can get listeria from unpasteurized cheese products like brie, you’re not supposed to be eating, unpasteurized cheese

[00:59:40] Dani Morin: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t mess with that. I don’t mess with that. Anyways.

[00:59:43] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: the time for brie. Right.

[00:59:45] Dani Morin: Yeah.

[00:59:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Let’s get some brie in me.

[00:59:48] Dani Morin: Well you’ve just been like the best thing for me during this pregnancy and I so appreciate you and I hope that people use you as a resource. You just put out so much good stuff and you’re someone I trust and your stuff is easily digestible and I just really, really appreciate it and our friendship, so thank you.

[01:00:04] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you. We gotta get Jeremy in the birth class though ’cause he obviously is ripe and ready to go. So we’re gonna get Dani

[01:00:11] Dani Morin: we will.

[01:00:11] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: the birth class ’cause

[01:00:13] Dani Morin: We will.

[01:00:14] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: that’ll answer a lot of everyone’s questions too, probably. Thank you for coming on. This has been so much fun. I

[01:00:19] Dani Morin: Thank you.

[01:00:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I hate that that doctor was like, this is unsafe.

[01:00:23] Because when doctors do stuff like that, it doesn’t open up the door for like collaboration or the fact that it really is not unsafe. Especially compared to regular sex where you could pass chlamydia or gonorrhea, like a syringe is a lot safer from like a medical perspective.

[01:00:37] Dani Morin: Yeah,

[01:00:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So anyway,

[01:00:40] Dani Morin: they wanna make money. But yeah.

[01:00:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And,

[01:00:43] Dani Morin: Thank you for letting me. You

[01:00:44] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Make sure you follow Dani. She has so many good tips on car seats, child safety. It’s gonna also be fun to watch Dani head into life with three kids, versus just one ’cause I’m sure there’s gonna be a lot of fun, chaos to, enjoy

[01:00:56] Dani Morin: love you.

[01:00:57] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: all. All right, we’ll talk to you later.

[01:00:59] Dani Morin: Bye.

[01:01:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. It was fun to like bounce around a different topic. Dani and I are obviously friends, but I think three things that I learned. First off, you know, the money is important. And I really love that she tried something that worked for her instead of just doing something that kind of was the standard for getting pregnant.

[01:01:17] Second of all, if you’re in a position where you can’t switch providers, sometimes you have to make do. She’s definitely looked around like we’ve talked a lot about it. But I just want people to know that sometimes you don’t get the provider of your dreams, but can still have a really great outcome.

[01:01:30] And third watch ai, those robots will get you. thank you for coming on Dani. I hope you guys will join us on our next episode.

[01:01:36] Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

Keywords:

getting pregnant, home insemination, sperm donor, unplanned pregnancy, single mom by choice, IVF, IUI, PCOS, tilted cervix, prenatal care, child loss, grief, parenting guilt, Baltic amber teething necklace, child safety, product safety, natural parenting, evidence-based parenting, social media advocacy, birth plan, switching OB providers, high risk pregnancy, gestational hypertension, low dose aspirin in pregnancy, twin pregnancy, pregnancy anxiety, provider communication, hospital policies, AI for pregnancy questions, financial planning for parenthood, support systems

The post Unconventional Conception Stories and Advocacy in Motherhood with Dani Morin appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Big thanks to our sponsor The Online Prenatal Class for Couples — if you want to learn to communicate better, it is the class for you!

Today’s guest is Today’s guest is Juli Pyle (she/her) a certified nurse midwife who practices at a community hospital in rural Pennsylvania. Juli was a stay at mom for many years to five children before deciding to return to school to pursue a degree in nursing. She graduated from Colorado Mesa University with a bachelors of science in nursing degree in 2016 and then began her nursing career as a labor and delivery nurse. She quickly discovered that this was her true passion (as she had suspected since having her own children) and quickly gained a reputation for professionalism, compassion and expertise among colleagues and patients. She then returned to Frontier Nursing University to complete a Master’s degree in Nursing with an emphasis in midwifery. In 2020, she graduated and began as a certified nurse-midwife at a small community hospital in central Pennsylvania where she has been since that time. Her focus as a CNM is to provide evidence-based education to all birthing families, give true autonomy and informed consent throughout their time with her and to share love, understanding, empathy and true shared-decision making. When not immersed in the birthing world, she enjoys spending time refinishing furniture, gardening, raising and breeding different types of chickens, hiking and vacationing with her family.

Links for you:

Julie’s previous Episodes:

The Best Providers for Your Baby’s Arrival: A Deep Dive with CNM Juli Pyle — Episode 204

What Your Providers Think When You’re in Labor with CNM Juli Pyle – Episode 189

Timestamps:

00:00 “Informed Consent Importance in Medicine”

04:20 Balancing Patient Communication and Time

09:24 Respectful Informed Consent Dynamic

10:29 Patient Choice in Labor Induction

14:06 Informed Consent for Episiotomy Decisions

18:17 Informed Consent for Induction

22:31 Labor Induction and Position Choices

25:56 Documenting Risk in Patient Decisions

29:16 Holistic Prenatal Care Approach

32:33 Nurses’ Role in Informed Consent

35:45 Patient Communication with Providers

37:21 Importance of Informed Consent

Keypoints:

• Informed consent in labor and delivery is a crucial and often misunderstood part of medical care, emphasizing the patient’s right to understand and make decisions about what happens to their body.
• There are five main components of informed consent: patient understanding, absence of coercion, full disclosure of risks/benefits/alternatives, the right to decline, and documentation of the discussion.
• Time pressure, provider biases, and regional/cultural differences often affect how effectively informed consent is communicated in hospitals.
• Patients are encouraged to ask, at any point, for the risks, benefits, and alternatives to a procedure—it’s their right, even for routine interventions.
• Some medical staff may overwhelm patients with information, while others may inadvertently minimize discussion; finding the right balance to suit each patient is key.
• Regional culture, age, language, and personal preference play huge roles in how much information patients want or are comfortable with during labor and delivery.
• Informed consent isn’t just for major decisions like C-sections or epidurals—it can and should apply to things like cervical exams and labor positions, even in less formal, conversational ways.
• Declining a recommended intervention (e.g., breaking water, episiotomy, induction) is absolutely an option for patients, and the birth experience should support their decision, barring emergency situations.
• The benefits of midwifery care are highlighted, including a more holistic and consistent approach to informed consent and labor support, but ultimately provider style matters more than title.
• Good communication and shared decision-making between providers and patients help prevent birth trauma and litigation, reinforcing the importance of patients feeling informed and respected during their birth experience.

Producer: Drew Erickson

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Hey guys. Welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today we are talking about informed consent in labor and delivery, so let’s untangle it.

[00:00:06] Hi, I’m Hilary, a Serial overcomplicator. I’m also a nurse mom to three and the curly head behind pulling curls and the pregnancy nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with pregnancy and parenting untangled the Pulling Curls Podcast.

[00:00:36] Today’s guest is a certified nurse midwife in Pennsylvania. She actually had five kids of her own, then went back to school, became a labor and delivery nurse, and then became a midwife. I wanna introduce today’s guest, Juli Pyle.

[00:00:48] Hey Juli, welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here.

[00:00:52] Juli Pyle CNM: Hi Hilary. It’s good to be back today.

[00:00:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, so we’re on this longer form content, and when I was thinking about who I wanted to have a guest, Juli definitely came to mind because I think you have a lot of great information as someone who’s had multiple babies, someone who’s been a labor nurse, somebody who’s a midwife of things that people are actually thinking about as they deliver their baby.

[00:01:12] And of course it’s, it’s sort of different like locationally. ’cause I’ve delivered in the west, you’re in the east. So I’m just excited that you’re here, and today we’re gonna talk about informed consent. So let’s first define. What is informed consent?

[00:01:24] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah, I think informed consent is really a hot topic right now in the medical world, and especially in labor and birth, because really once we define it, you’ll understand why, but it’s super important for us to have a grasp of what is going on with our bodies in any sort of medical scenario.

[00:01:41] So informed consent really has five components. The first one, which seems pretty obvious, but does the patient or do you understand the information? That doesn’t seem like something we’d have to define, but sometimes as medical providers we get talking and talking and we don’t have the right words so that the person understands what we’re talking about. So patient has to understand the information.

[00:02:04] The second part of that is it needs to be without any sort of coercion or undue influence. So you have to be really objective in the information you’re giving and not try and sway somebody because of what you think should happen as the provider.

[00:02:18] Really, all the information should be disclosed about the risks, the benefits, the alternatives. The right to decline whatever treatment we’re talking about and knowing what the potential complications are either way. That’s not always a simple conversation, but a really important one when we’re talking about informed consent and the right to refusal is really the fourth point.

[00:02:39] And then the last piece of all that is documentation that it’s happened some way, shape, or form. Sometimes that’s an already like pre-printed form that people just fill out and sign. Sometimes it can just be documented in the medical notes. Somehow there needs to be something written that informed consent was discussed and what the outcome was.

[00:02:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s actually one of the first things I learned as a nurse. Back when we had paper charting, we had a little stamp about informed consent, and then the provider would sign it before a C-section, and I think they did it before an epidural. Now people. It is tricky because they’re like, well, we wanna informed consent on everything and let, let me just remind you, like if we did an informed consent in our lives, like I don’t know if our car would ever get going.

[00:03:20] Right. If it gave us like all the things that could happen to us in the car. So we as providers tend to like keep informed consent to the important things. But you’re always welcome to ask for informed consent, right?

[00:03:32] Juli Pyle CNM: Absolutely. If I think that’s a big piece of, as the patient or as the person receiving care.

[00:03:37] You know, anytime you feel unsure about what’s happening, just a simple question of can you explain the risks, the benefits, and the alternatives to doing this to me, because then that should give the provider the clue that like, okay, this person needs to understand more.

[00:03:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Why? Why do you think we’re not good at giving it in the hospital?

[00:03:55] ’cause I’ll say, Juli, my mom was just in the hospital having ankle surgery, not having a baby, thank goodness. And it’s surprising, like it’s just they people aren’t great at it. I think they think this is obvious, right? For her, it’s been a long plan of care. Several, several things. And so they’re just like, this is obviously the best option for you.

[00:04:15] But it, it is annoying that they aren’t like, this is why.

[00:04:19] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah, I think we are in a hurry. Always. Our lives are busy, right? And so to think about taking. Five to 10 minutes with every single patient to explain Every single procedure can feel overwhelming from the provider side, but that, that doesn’t mean it’s not important to do so.

[00:04:33] But I think that, I think busyness and time is a huge part of it. I think there’s a, there’s a component that if we explain too well that people may not choose to do the treatment or may not choose to have the surgery if we’re really honest about what could happen. And of course as a provider, we sort of obviously count on people doing these, these things as part of our jobs.

[00:04:53] Not counting on it like they have to do it so that we make money, but just, just like, obviously if our schedule doesn’t have procedures on it, then we wouldn’t have a job. Right. And I do think it comes down to. We don’t do a good job of like really explaining things in a way that doesn’t include our values and preferences, you know?

[00:05:13] Like, oh, I would do that, so you should do it. And we just leave it at that. But that’s my perspective on, on what’s going on.

[00:05:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Two thoughts. Oh, so we used to have an anesthesiologist who, they come and they give informed consent. Nobody seems to remember, which, I can’t blame you because you’re in pain when you get the epidural informed consent.

[00:05:29] But they always come in the room and they say, there’s a risk of a really bad headache. There’s always a risk of infection, or blah, blah, blah. And then he always ended it, or you could die. I would see the patient’s eyes get really, really big, and so I started to like cut, like before he came in, I said, just so you know, his informed consent will end or you could die.

[00:05:48] I’ve never seen anybody die from an epidural, but he’s just giving you like all the things. Not every anesthesiologist… do you ever hear that?

[00:05:56] Juli Pyle CNM: We, we have a couple that go so in depth with their informed consent, which again, should not be considered a bad thing that even the patients are like, yes, whatever.

[00:06:03] I’m just, I’m ready. Like give me the epidural. Like, I don’t care what you’re telling me right now. So I think there’s both ways, like. You can do too much and people stop listening, you know?

[00:06:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And you have to remember that if your oven or your car gave you informed consent, the full informed consent it would end with, or you could die.

[00:06:19] Because obviously ovens could be very unsafe, especially in the hands of me or my car with my teaching. My 15-year-old how to drive it should yell that at me, right when we get in the car. So sometimes patients are overwhelmed and some patients do not want it at all. They do not want to hear all the risks and the benefits.

[00:06:36] They don’t wanna make a choice. They literally just wanna hear whatever the provider thinks is best. That’s what they wanna do, and I think that’s valid and I think you could even stop them and be like. Whatever you think is best I’m on board with, if it’s really starting to freak you out. Because a lot of patients will be like, maybe I don’t want an epidural.

[00:06:52] And I’d be like, are you sure? Like the risk was always there. You knew that there was a risk of dying with anything we are doing today. And then they’re like, I guess, and then they’re just freaked out, right?

[00:07:01] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. You know, it’s funny you mentioned that I did a small little couple of months in the South as a nurse and there was very much a mentality regionally like.

[00:07:11] If the provider comes in and says, this is what should happen, I’m gonna do it. Like they didn’t ask questions, they really didn’t care about informed consent. The provider knew best and I’m gonna follow it, which has risks in and of itself. Right. So it was very interesting that just regionally, that can vary quite a bit of how much information people even want to know.

[00:07:30] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and overgeneralizing a whole bunch. It definitely varies depending on your age. Sometimes your nationality, I feel real bad when we’re trying to give informed consent and we’re giving it through the translator line, and I’m never sure that the people are really, truly understanding what the informed consent is.

[00:07:46] You know, they’re trained interpreters like, it’s like that’s all we can do, but sometimes those language barriers just not interested in maybe learning about their own care because they have so much going on in their own life at home. Things like that can really affect it.

[00:07:58] Juli Pyle CNM: Interestingly, when you look at acog, which is the governing body for obstetricians and also A CNM, which is the governing body for certified nurse midwives, they have very clear statements and very clear information on what informed consent is and that it should be happening in every instance humanly possible. That we should be providing that education. And that it’s really being much more recognized and taught in the coursework for these up and coming physicians and midwives as well. And, and that should tell us that it’s an important topic.

[00:08:29] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And some people call it different things. I noticed, like when I was at the AWHONN convention, they have a different word that they use. And I cannot remember what it is, but it’s basically the same thing.

[00:08:38] Juli Pyle CNM: I know we talk about shared decision making. I don’t know if that’s what you’re talking Yes. Shared about shared decision making. Yeah. Um, and really that’s the process of the informed consent and making the future plan. Is that shared decision making.

[00:08:49] I do feel like they are used synonymously sometimes, but both are components for sure.

[00:08:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay, so what should people be looking for informed consent on? Because I know a lot of people are like, well, you should give informed consent before you get the iv. You should be giving informed consent before you take a blood pressure.

[00:09:05] And I was like, okay. I don’t know that I can do it for a blood pressure. Also, if I was giving it for every single little thing, sometimes they might skip the like really important things. Right. I think we should be giving it briefly for maybe an exam, like an ex, a cervical check, just to be like, you know. ‘Cause a lot of times the alternative is that we wait.

[00:09:23] Juli Pyle CNM: There’s this weird. I think dynamic because like some of that. I think for us that do it well, it’s, it’s respect. Like I am respecting this person I’m taking care of and I’m gonna let them know I’m gonna put the blood pressure cuff on. You know, just telling them that like is a type of informed consent.

[00:09:40] Right? Because they may not know that that was your next step, you know? So you don’t wanna freak somebody out or like with a cervical exam, you know, giving a little bit of warning and a little bit of. Notice about what’s going on. I think that’s just respect. But it also can fall into the category of type of informed consent.

[00:09:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and you know, like she said, it’s not always gonna be like, today I am gonna assess the risks, the benefits, and the alternatives of this circle exam. It could just be like, Hey, you know, your provider was wanting us to check you every couple hours. What do you think about doing it now? If you wanna wait, we could do that too.

[00:10:11] We just kind of wanna see what your cervix is doing. We’re inducing you. We, we wanna make sure we’re doing our job. You know, that is an informed consent. It just didn’t be like, I’m gonna go through the risks and the benefits. Yeah. Because it’s awkward. Like we wanna just have a conversation with people.

[00:10:25] We don’t wanna be like checking boxes all the time through our care.

[00:10:29] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. And I think, like, I had a good example. In the last couple weeks of an induction that I was managing. And we know as labor nurses and providers, like if we get to the point that breaking the water is a good option, like it’s gonna make labor faster for somebody, especially that’s had a baby, right?

[00:10:44] But I gave that informed consent and that patient did not want water broke. And I said, great, you let me know when you’re ready for that. I’ll ask again at some point, you know? And instead of a baby, probably in one to two hours from that point, it was like seven hours from that point. Is there anything wrong with that? Probably not, you know, and she can fully say that she was in charge of that decision and, and was able to make the plan for herself that way. Looking back, I think she would’ve probably liked me to break the water earlier, you know? And we would’ve known that she could have had a baby sooner, you know?

[00:11:15] And that’s a good example of like, she chose to decline. And it, that was okay.

[00:11:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. I did that same thing with my last baby. I didn’t wanna have my water broken ’cause I was sure I would end up with a c-section if they broke my water and then they broke my water finally at like six centimeters and I had the baby like half hour later, you know?

[00:11:30] Yeah. But I had made the choice, I had driven the car and I had drove the car very, very slowly up until that point. Uh, yeah.

[00:11:37] Juli Pyle CNM: And on the flip side, if you had been forced into a decision, you know, of like, or this patient, if she had said. I don’t want that. And I said, uh, we’re gonna do it anyway. You know then that her whole experience is different and then it becomes birth trauma or it becomes like.

[00:11:53] You know, a potential lawsuit potentially, right? Like, those are things that can happen if, if that doesn’t go correctly.

[00:11:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Or my favorite, the doctor doesn’t even say anything, he just goes hand me the Amni hook. And I go, oh, did you wanna have your water broken Jane? And he glares at me and I’m like, don’t you think we should ask her?

[00:12:11] Juli Pyle CNM: Yep. Absolutely. And that, that still happens. Yeah, I think, I think it’s happening less, but it still happens.

[00:12:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And I… Pro tip for everybody out there who’s gonna have a baby. When they go to do a cervical exam or a doctor or a midwife, because labor nurses officially are not allowed to break water. You can always ask, are you thinking about breaking my water while you’re in there?

[00:12:29] Especially for the hospital. They’re not gonna do it in their office, hopefully. But yeah, I think sneak it in. We don’t like to sneak things.

[00:12:35] Juli Pyle CNM: I think that for labor and birth specifically, a really classic example, and one again I hope is happening less, but it still occurs, is the episiotomy. Right. That becomes like a big topic of debate and like if a doctor or provider or midwife says, oh, we’re just gonna make a little extra room to help baby get out faster.

[00:12:56] That’s not informed consent, right? That’s not explaining what’s happening. That’s not giving the patient a true option to decline or accept, but that still happens, you know, versus like, Hey, this is what I’m seeing. I can do this procedure. These are the risks, these are the benefits. Would you like this?

[00:13:12] You know, to to be part of your care. That’s a really classic one that we’re gonna continue to see. But I think as labor nurses, you really have seen that a lot more. And it makes you nervous when that’s happening.

[00:13:22] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So that is tricky because there are points in time where they’re like, I need to give you a cut when the crap is really hitting the fan or whatever.

[00:13:29] And hopefully providers have talked to you while you’re in the office about it. I don’t do, do people do this anymore. When I had my first baby, they went over like probably 30 weeks. They went over, are you okay with blood products? We might need to do an app episiotomy. We might need to do an emergency C-section and we might need to take your uterus.

[00:13:45] Like they went through all three of all like four of those things. Just to kind of let you air your thoughts on all those different kinds of things. Right. Do do any providers do that anymore?

[00:13:54] Juli Pyle CNM: I think it’s really like provider and facility dependent. ‘Cause I have seen that still happening and then other places that like literally nothing’s talked about ever.

[00:14:03] So varies quite a bit, unfortunately.

[00:14:06] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And if you’re having that discussion with your provider, I think it’s akay to say, you know what, if me or my baby’s life is obviously in jeopardy, we’re akay with a, an episiotomy. But everything up until that point, I would really like you to stop and say, do you want me to do this?

[00:14:20] And that? I’m just here to say that that does happen. Sometimes they’re like, you know, you could keep pushing for another half an hour, or I could give you a little cut and we, and we could have this baby sooner. And I think that’s valid. I mean, I think that’s true in form consent. ’cause maybe the woman really values just getting that baby out.

[00:14:36] She’s so tired and miserable and if that provider, experienced provider knows that a cut will help get the baby there sooner, she’s like, do it. I’m over this. Right. Or Yeah. She’s like, no, I really love my perineum. I wanna try and keep it as intact as possible. I wanna push until my eyeballs fall out before you cut me.

[00:14:53] Juli Pyle CNM: Right. Everybody, there’s two different people. Truly, I think that’s the part of informed consent we don’t often talk about is that somebody may want the more invasive thing, you know, and they may really feel like that’s better for them. And sometimes we don’t even talk about it, you know? So then we really haven’t given them all of the information.

[00:15:11] To make a decision. We’ve talked about this previously on induction podcast that we did. Right? That like, yeah, somebody may have a lot of really valid options for desiring that higher intervention induction at 39 weeks as soon as humanly possible, even though that might not be what the majority of the people would choose.

[00:15:28] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And I actually have a super conservative friend who home births, and she was like, I don’t even understand why they give women the option. And I was really taken aback by that because that just makes me feel like, okay, it has been proven to be safe, at least. For the most part, it may increase C-section rates, whatever we wanna talk about.

[00:15:44] The arrive trial, it has been proven that it really doesn’t ultimately hurt mom or baby to have an elective induction at 39 weeks. And we as sentient people who get to make choices for our own bodies really should be able to make that choice, not just the provider doesn’t make that choice. Now, of course, if the hospital’s too busy or things like that, then then we don’t get to make that choice.

[00:16:05] I have people all the time that are like, no, they will not induce selectively before 41 weeks, which I’m like, whoa. It’s crazy how different some hospitals are, but what do you think on that? About like 41 weeks? Well, no. Oh. What do you think about, uh, the 39 week induction? Like, don’t you think we should all be?

[00:16:22] Sometimes I’m like, well, if somebody really wants to be induced at 37 weeks, it is kind of weird that we don’t even give them the option. Of course, we’re having to balance the pro, the thing of. Prior to 39 weeks, it has been proven that maybe your baby could have a NICU state or have ultimately bigger problems.

[00:16:37] And so we’re really trying to push that off. But it does sort of bother me that if people are begging for an induction at 37 weeks, we’re just like, nope, nope, nope, nope.

[00:16:45] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah, I think that 39 week discussion again gets really heated. And if you have 10 different providers, labor nurses are gonna get all 10 different perspectives.

[00:16:54] And again, this is part of my informed consent when somebody’s asking about it, it’s like. There are things that start to increase your risk by not having a baby after 39 weeks. You know? So we know that definitely after 41 weeks, right, placental function declines, other things start happening that will not help a baby on the outside.

[00:17:12] But even after 39 weeks, that risk of stillbirth, the risk of preeclampsia, the risk of fluid around baby going down, like all of those start to get more risky, not significantly. So we’re not talking about 50% between 39 and 39 and two days, you know, but it is start to go up. And so some people even use the term risk reduction as far as like what happens after a 39 week induction.

[00:17:37] You know that, that you’re reducing the risk of somebody by inducing. So there’s certainly a lot of discussion that happens, but we just have to respect that somebody can understand that information and then make the decision of yes or no for themselves.

[00:17:50] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, it’s tricky and everybody’s like, oh, I’m gonna make that decision when I’m like 30 weeks pregnant.

[00:17:55] I’m like, no, you make that decision based on, you know what? What’s your cervical exam at that point? If you’re six centimeters and contracting every evening. You know, that’s a big difference between I’m close, thick and high, I’ve never had a baby before. These are very different situations that we’re looking at.

[00:18:11] Juli Pyle CNM: Absolutely. Yeah. And And that’s what makes it so tricky. ’cause there’s so many variables.

[00:18:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. So what do you think, I think this is a big one that people maybe don’t get enough of an informed consent on because they’re just thinking. I want this baby out, right? Because I’m so tired of being pregnant. So what do you think are things that people should be talking with a provider so that they feel like they get a full informed consent?

[00:18:34] Because I so often hear online, my provider forced me to have an induction and I didn’t wanna have it. Or he scared me and said I should have an induction and then I ended up having a C-section or whatever like that. What do you think people should be going through before. For an induction so that they really feel like they have a handle on what’s gonna be happening to them.

[00:18:52] Juli Pyle CNM: I think you have to specifically ask what the induction protocols and like what the plan usually is at the facility and the provider you’re using, because the way I manage an induction may be completely different from somebody else, and that can make your whole experience very different. You know, evidence has proven that nurse midwives as.

[00:19:11] Providers, you’re gonna have more successful labor progress in general, and that includes induction. Part of that is because we’re, we are not, and this is a very general statement, but generally speaking, you know, we’re not as tied to really specific timeframes and milestones throughout. We’re gonna individualize that to exactly what your body’s doing, you know, so for example, you know…

[00:19:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And a shout out for midwives because they’re there.

[00:19:37] So that’s how they can tailor it, right? Yes. Whereas an OB calls in maybe every four to six hours. They’re not there. They aren’t kind of watching everything every step of the way. Shout out for midwives,

[00:19:46] Juli Pyle CNM: guys.

[00:19:47] Yeah. Historically and generally speaking, we’re gonna be a little bit more present in the care and be able to kind of doing informed consent all along the way instead of like just this one discussion, you know, at 39 weeks right before your induction.

[00:20:00] And again, I think that’s a big conversation for people who desire that is like, okay, what happens if my cervix is staying the same for four hours? What are you gonna do? You know? And then getting that answer. And if you’re not happy with that, then you have to start, start making decisions along the way.

[00:20:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, it is true. A lot of people are really upset with their Foley bulb inductions lately because it can be really painful. Some people that that. That’s the tricky thing, right? Some people get a fully bowl placed and they, they could care less. It doesn’t bother them at all. And then some people get a fully bowl placed and it is literally the worst thing in their whole lives.

[00:20:33] They want the epidural just for that fully bulb. And I think sometimes people forget that this is, it’s such a huge range. Just like IUD placements, like I got my IUD placed. I was like, when are you gonna be done? Right? And she was like, oh, it’s already in. I was like, oh. I don’t have any feelings down there apparently.

[00:20:49] And so there is a huge range of how people feel different things. And the best part of informed consent is knowing that you can, you know, you get that fully well placed and it’s absolutely miserable. You’re like, I wanna go home. This is, I want it out. I wanna go home. And that, that’s always an option.

[00:21:03] Juli Pyle CNM: Yep.

[00:21:04] I think that’s important. Like especially for fully bulbs, I tell people, I’m like, what? I think this is a good option if you absolutely hate it. It can come out. That’s the great thing about that process. You know, now water breaking, like we talked about earlier, can’t take that back. Right? So that’s one that you have to be pretty sure about.

[00:21:20] I’m all about giving people all of their options and allowing them to make a decision. And there are times when they will tell me, I have no idea, what do you think we should do next? And then that’s when my professional experience and opinion becomes, you know, probably likely to what’s gonna happen because they’re asking me that for that.

[00:21:37] Right. And that’s part of their informed consent is that they’re like, I don’t know. This is a lot of information. What do you think?

[00:21:43] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, because it can feel like a deluge of information in labor and delivery, and it’s okay to be like, I’m not sure what I should do. What do you think? Or if this was your choice or your daughter or whatever like that, what would you be encouraging them to do at this point or something?

[00:21:58] I think that really helps is, you know, I really value. Aiming for a vaginal delivery, right? Like that is one of my highest priorities in this delivery. This fully bulb is hurting like a son of a gun. What do you think my best option is to try and not die with a fully bulb, but also get a vaginal delivery and then see what your provider has to say,

[00:22:17] Juli Pyle CNM: right?

[00:22:17] Absolutely. Yep. You should always be open for things to change throughout the process, especially when we’re talking about babies being born.

[00:22:26] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. What other things do you think people should be looking for in informed consent on?

[00:22:30] Juli Pyle CNM: Well, induction, like we said, that’s a huge one throughout the labor process.

[00:22:34] Breaking water, that’s a big one. As well as, uh, a big topic right now is delayed versus immediate pushing. So, and then also positions in labor I think is always gonna be a big thing because there’s a lot of facilities and a lot of people that. That don’t want laboring people to move around because it makes our jobs harder.

[00:22:53] And so positions, I think throughout labor, I don’t know that that’s truly like informed consent, but like if, if you have a provider that says you have to stay in bed, the patient, you can ask like, why do I have to be in bed? What are my other options? What are my other alternatives? And, and why are we doing it this way?

[00:23:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, I think that’s a great one. And also sometimes as a nurse, I would go in and be like, okay, let’s, let’s roll you to the other side, or whatever, when they had an epidural and they’re like, oh, I’m just so comfortable right here. And so sometimes I would go into informed consent, not again. We’re not gonna be like, well, these are the risks of you staying on your left side.

[00:23:23] Right? Just saying, Hey, I have noticed that patients who move more during labor tend to progress a little bit better, and I would love to help you move, but if you wanna stay on your left hand side, then you can totally do that. What do you wanna do? Right. And that is an informed consent where I’m just saying, I think you might be better off turning, but if you wanna stay where you are, go for it.

[00:23:42] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. I think one that I hear a lot is people say, oh, I don’t wanna give birth on my back. Right? I don’t wanna have the baby come out in my back, but I often find that laboring people prefer that position. So I’m open to like any position, like if you feel like you can do a handstand and you wanna try pushing like that, I’ll try for you.

[00:24:00] You know, like, let’s go for it. But a lot of times people are trying to figure out what to do and I said, let’s try that position. A lot of people prefer it, and then they’re like, oh. I don’t wanna change outta this position, like I like this position and it’s the one that they thought that they absolutely didn’t want.

[00:24:15] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, there are a lot of benefits to being on your back, most of them being that between contractions, you can chill out a little bit. And the other thing with informed consent is it’s okay if your provider says, you know, I feel. I think this is the best way I deliver. If your tile man came and you were like, well, I want you to tile the ceiling, wouldn’t you want ’em to say, I am not great at tiling the ceiling.

[00:24:37] You know, that’s not my skillset. And the same thing goes for your provider. They can say, you know, I’ve delivered 99% of my patients on their back. That’s delivery. That doesn’t mean you have to push the whole time on your back, and I’m best at that, but if you wanna try doing it squatting, we. I’m happy to try that.

[00:24:53] I just want you to know my A game comes when you’re on your back and I think people get mad that they’re like, well, why don’t you have a B game for squatting? But the reality is, I think it’s great when a provider says, this is what I’m best at. What do you want me to do?

[00:25:06] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. And I think that’s where you should be evaluating that relationship between provider and yourself before labor.

[00:25:14] Asking questions along the way so that you’re not blindsided by something, but also so that it’s a good fit and hopefully a good experience.

[00:25:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I think it can be really tricky. And the other thing that I don’t think people understand is that in the hospital we can give you informed consent and you can still end up suing us it.

[00:25:29] So that ends up feeling really tricky for us because, you know, if we have a patient that we’ve seen is in trouble and they definitely don’t want a C-section, we are hands off and we’re like, okay. Baby ends up having a bad outcome and we’re like, well, we just informed consent the heck out of that lady.

[00:25:44] You know, nurse, doctor, second doctor have all come in and said, we see a bad outcome and yet they still come back and sue us. And so that is really tricky for us as providers. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:25:54] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah, that gets really in the weeds of documentation and being able to show that there was real good conversations and if that can happen and the outcome was still not as expected or not great.

[00:26:07] That unfortunately gives us a little bit more clout on our side to say like, and I will make documentation, like if somebody’s declining something and their risk of stillbirth is really high, you know, for various reasons I will put in my note like discussion held about whatever it was, and that her risk of stillbirth is higher.

[00:26:25] If we do not do this thing, you know, because none of us can know if that would happen, that would be the worst outcome, obviously. But it has to be really clear, you know, on the provider side. And hopefully if we’re documenting that it was really clear. We really give the information clearly to the patients so that they’re getting the information that they really need.

[00:26:43] But that’s so hard because we can’t predict the future, especially in labor and delivery. It gets very, very gray in many situations.

[00:26:50] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I just like people to understand that sometimes when we’re like going over things, maybe excessively, that’s part of the reason why is we’re all real worried about liability and I wish we didn’t have to be so worried about it.

[00:27:02] Obviously, I wish we could just give informed consent and that would be enough, and you get to make the choice that you want. But liability is a tricky part in labor and delivery especially.

[00:27:10] Juli Pyle CNM: And the other part that I’ll mention is that, you know, I’m talking about litigation because. We work in ob so we’re, we’re gonna have to have to talk about litigation ’cause it’s a high litigation area.

[00:27:20] But again, the research has beared out that one midwives are less likely to have litigation on them. And two, that a good relationship with the patient. So somebody who feels like they can trust you. You’ve given them information that you’ve respected them as a person are much less likely to even think about or pursue litigation even when there’s been really horrible outcomes.

[00:27:43] If the process along the way has been compassionate and respectful, it’s less likely that that’s gonna come to that.

[00:27:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So Juli, you are a certified nurse midwife, and we have an episode that I’ll link in the show notes that we talked about, like the different people that can deliver your baby. And it is so confusing for people because some people think of a midwife as just like Joan down the street who delivers babies, like on Little House in the Prairie where Caroline would go sit with them, right?

[00:28:07] Versus somebody who, do you have a doctorate? Juli? We have to have a doctorate in, um, Arizona.

[00:28:12] Juli Pyle CNM: I don’t, I have a MA master’s degree, but yes, some states require a doctorate, but. It’s the equivalent of a nurse practitioner. Yeah.

[00:28:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Where you’ve had like a residency plus you were a labor and delivery nurse before you were a midwife.

[00:28:24] Like it’s an extensive training. And the beauty about a midwife that I think a lot of people don’t understand is you always have an OB where you’re kind of like, you know, we’re starting to get in the weeds here a little bit. I’d like a consult with a little higher up. Right. I’d like to move this up. So what’s the best part of having a midwife deliver your baby Juli versus an open?

[00:28:44] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. The first part of that, I think is that. The understanding that, yeah, we’re not obstetricians, we don’t have a physician training. We can’t do surgeries. Right? Yeah. But we actually manage, not all of us. It depends on our training and our experience, but most of us manage high risk conditions throughout as well.

[00:29:01] It’s not just like the most low risk person is the only one that can have a midwife as a provider. So you know. I, I will manage people with hypertension, people with regular diabetes or gestational diabetes, like those are things that I can help manage. So we’re not just like the lowest risk people that can have a baby in a teepee, and that’s all.

[00:29:20] So we’re not exclusively keeping people that have high risk conditions out of our care. We can do that. Again, there’s much more of a holistic approach. So we’re looking at the whole person and like, you have five other children, how are we gonna get you to twice a week? Fetal testing appointments, right.

[00:29:36] How is this gonna work for you? Instead of just saying. If you need twice a week visits, figure it out. Like we’re gonna try and work through, you know, the whole scenario as well as looking past those points. You know, like maybe a C-section is recommended again, you have five other children. How’s your recovery gonna be?

[00:29:52] What are you gonna have in place for that? I just think we do a better job of being able to see, especially because we’ve been a nurse before, so our perspective is not as medical, it’s nurse and holistic person perspective. So I think that’s really valuable. And then depending on where you’re practicing, it’s not always this way, but hopefully a midwife can be a little bit more hands-on throughout the labor process and be able to give a little bit more support than the obs who are busy with surgeries, busy with a million other things that we don’t have to do.

[00:30:22] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Now, of course, I wanna caveat this, that there are obs who practice very similarly to midwives, I find, and there are midwives who practice very similarly to ob. Yeah. So I’m not saying that you just be like, oh, she’s an ob, or she’s this midwife.

[00:30:36] She’s gonna be amazing. ’cause some midwives I’ve worked with and I’m like, oh my gosh, we’re all gonna die today. Or, I’ve worked with obs and I’m like, oh my gosh. Like they wanna be here from six centimeters on. They clear their schedule and they just make it, and they really wanna be there for the patient.

[00:30:49] They love that part of it. So obviously you wanna find the provider that’s right for you, but I get so many people in my groups that are like, well, I didn’t wanna have a midwife because she, you know, what if something went wrong, I got diabetes or preeclampsia or something. And I’m like, no. Like, that’s not gonna preclude you.

[00:31:05] From using them. You know, maybe you go see an o, an OB for one appointment and then you go back to your midwives rights. I think a lot of people don’t understand that there’s like midwives, there’s obs, and then there’s perinatologists, right? Like there are always these different levels of care that we’re kind of like, you know, we’re kind of in the weeds here.

[00:31:22] Let’s get somebody higher. Is there anybody above perinatologists? I think that’s it. Or maternal fetal medicine is their new name. Similar?

[00:31:28] Juli Pyle CNM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s the thing is like a lot of these things I can just make a phone call and be like, Hey. Maternal fetal medicine, what’s our plan? But I can still implement that plan and be the primary person throughout the pregnancy journey, and that’s really, really helpful, I think.

[00:31:44] And that’s what it should be. We should try and keep ourselves connected with the people that we know and have our relationship with if we can.

[00:31:51] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And I see midwives doing informed consent. It tend to be, again, tend to be overgeneralizing all along the way. Right? Like they’ll, at 36 weeks they’ll be like, Hey, I am seeing that you might, you know, your blood pressure’s trending up a little bit.

[00:32:05] There is gonna maybe be a possibility of an induction. I just wanna put a little seed in your head so you can start to think about what’s important to you and how we’re gonna balance that with an induction. We’re gonna see you next week. Right? Absolutely. That’s exactly what I do. Yeah, because whereas an OB, all of a sudden your blood pressure’s high and you’re like, we’re gonna induce you tomorrow, and they’re just totally taken off guard.

[00:32:24] Juli Pyle CNM: Or they show up in labor and delivery. They’re like, I don’t know why I’m here. And nobody’s told them anything, you know? So yes, I agree with that completely.

[00:32:32] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I should say that one of the trickiest things is officially your labor nurse is not the one to give informed consent for the big stuff.

[00:32:39] Obviously a cervical exam or putting your blood pressure cuff on, we can do stuff like that. Definitely not for a c-section. We shouldn’t be the ones really doing it for an induction. That should be a, a conversation that you have in the office or over the phone or something, but. A lot of people are like, oh, the nurses didn’t give me informed consent, but officially, that’s not really our job.

[00:32:55] We should be the ones who catch it. Where the we’re like, this girl doesn’t even know how or why she’s getting induced. I feel like maybe we should have a conversation today.

[00:33:03] Juli Pyle CNM: Yep, absolutely. I feel like the labor nurses are there to help facilitate, to make sure it’s happening. You have a little bit more time usually to, to give more of the background information that maybe the provider doesn’t spend as much time on.

[00:33:15] And I think that that’s really valuable. And you have the perspective of, again, that whole person that you’ve been taking care of, you know, and you’ve been able to say, I don’t think that this is what they really have been telling me they want, you know, and you can communicate that to the provider a little better sometimes.

[00:33:29] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. That part’s super rewarding for me. And also just because you give informed consent to be induced, like we talked with about, with a Foley bulb. If you get into it and it’s just miserable and you’re starting to be like, I just wanna have a C-section, my cervix isn’t even opening. You can make another choice.

[00:33:44] It’s not like informed consent. And then you are on that train forever. You can be like, I wanna get off this train. This train isn’t taking me where I wanna go. I can make a new choice. Obviously once your water breaks, there’s certain things we do that we can’t roll back, but there’s a lot of choices in labor and delivery where you can say, this is not working for me anymore.

[00:34:01] What can we do to change? And that’s a, that’s an opportunity for a new informed consent. Absolutely. It’s tricky because a lot of people are like, I do not wanna go home under any circumstances, but I, it’s hard for us because we’re like, two days at home could be a big difference for you.

[00:34:15] Juli Pyle CNM: I had a patient who we were sort of preemptively discussing like the need for induction, and she asked me that.

[00:34:21] She said, well, did people ever go home? And I said, great question. I said, most of the time that’s the patient that doesn’t wanna go home. Honestly. Yeah, they’re ready to, they’re ready for the baby to be on the outside. I understand that. But it can be an option of like, this hasn’t worked for 24 hours. Like literally nothing’s helping.

[00:34:35] Can I go home for a couple days? And there are scenarios that that is not a good option, but there are many scenarios that it could be.

[00:34:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: You know, Juli, I think one of the hardest parts of being a labor nurse is that it is, I give birth all the time. Right. As a labor and delivery nurse. So it ultimately, it doesn’t end up as big of a deal, but when you are coming in, you’re new, what do you do you have thoughts on that?

[00:34:54] Juli Pyle CNM: I just think as providers and nurses, you know, we do this. Every single day, multiple times a day. So, you know, an informed consent on induction, right? We might be like, oh my gosh, I’ve said this seven times today. And that might change, you know, the words we’re saying. But if we keep the perspective of like, for this person, this is their first baby, maybe first induction for this person, they have not experienced maybe ever being on the monitor.

[00:35:19] You know? And so explaining some of the things that we’re doing is important for me. I keep that perspective. I try to, that like. This is the most important day for them, even though I’ve maybe already caught five other babies today as a midwife. Like this is their time. And so that perspective helps me, uh, be able to like refocus and be like, okay, I, I need to explain all of this exactly the same way again. And that’s okay.

[00:35:44] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And as a patient, if you feel like your provider’s sort of running through it, think of your job and something you tell people constantly all the time. And how sometimes it’s more clear than other times, right? If you work at McDonald’s talking about this, the fry sizes or whatever, if you can always say to your provider, Hey, can we just slow down and have a quick conversation about this?

[00:36:02] Sometimes, you know, it’s been a long day. They’re kind of quickly going through it when, but if you say something like that, that triggers in them that. That you need a little bit more information. And I would say 98% of us are human. And when they hear something like that, they’re like, okay, she really wants more help with this decision and we are gonna slow down and really help you.

[00:36:19] But sometimes because we’re human and you’re human, we need that reminder that you would like a little bit more information and to slow things down. And that’s A-okay to say as a patient? A hundred percent.

[00:36:29] Juli Pyle CNM: Absolutely. Yep. We are, we are humans after all. We’re people just living the experience and getting through the journey, especially labor and delivery.

[00:36:36] That’s a whole separate life changing day, you know? Yes. So I agree with you. Absolutely.

[00:36:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Guys, informed consent is so important. I really want you to take it serious. I think providers are taking it seriously way more seriously than they used to because it really used to just be for a C-section and that’s it.

[00:36:54] Well, an epidural, but we really are doing a better job at it. But when you communicate what kind of information you want or things like that, I think it just helps everybody. End up having a better experience and can prevent a lot of birth trauma when you understand that you are really in the driver’s seat of this car.

[00:37:09] Thanks for coming on, Juli. Thank you so much. I know you’re a busy midwife. You gotta go catch some babies probably now. Or deliver. We catch, we don’t deliver. Yeah.

[00:37:17] Juli Pyle CNM: Yes. Thank you for having me today. It’s always great to see you.

[00:37:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. I don’t think we stress how important informed consent is, and I think a lot of times when you’re in labor, you’re just overwhelmed and you don’t wanna hear about it. So I think this is a good one to have your partner listened to and to just think about how you’re gonna implement when you’re in labor, even when you’re tired and you don’t wanna hear about it.

[00:37:36] Because I think it can be really helpful in making the choices that you want when you’re in labor and helping you feel like you are in charge of what’s going on.

[00:37:43] Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls Podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

Keywords:

informed consent, labor and delivery, childbirth, induction, epidural, c-section, certified nurse midwife, obstetrician, patient rights, shared decision making, medical risks, medical benefits, alternatives to treatment, refusal of treatment, documentation, birth trauma, labor nurse, pregnancy, patient-provider communication, cervical exam, water breaking, episiotomy, pain management, delivery positions, hospital protocols, regional differences in care, language barriers, birth plan, stillbirth risk, maternal fetal medicine

The post Informed Consent During Pregnancy: Knowing Your Rights appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Or, watch the video version:

Big thanks to our sponsor Laborie, makes of the Kiwi® Complete Vacuum Delivery System: https://www.laborie.com/product/kiwi/

Today’s guest is Dr. Tori O’Daniel. She is a Board-Certified OB/GYN whom has been practicing for 14 years. For the past 11 years she has been an OB/GYN Hospitalist in OKC, Oklahoma. Dr. O’Daniel is the Medical Director for the OB Hospitalist and women’s services. She also is the Medical Director for Women’s Health Services at Mercy Hospital. She instructs educational classes and facilitates the OB Emergency Simulations for the nurses and physicians within her department. As an Adjunct Faculty at Oklahoma State University, she is the Director of the Medical Student Clinical rotations at her institution.

She has been actively involved in the Society of OB/GYN Hospitalists (SOGH) for the past several years. She co-chaired the Simulation committee in 2020 & 2021 and Co-Chaired the ACM 2022 & 2023. She currently serves on the Board of Directors.

Dr. O’Daniel is passionate about education and advocating for women’s safety in health care. Thus, she actively teaches across the country about vacuum assisted deliveries, treating post partum hemorrhage and other OBGYN Emergencies.

Links for you:

Previous episode sponsored by Laborie (#246) about plus size moms in labor: https://www.pullingcurls.com/246-plus-size/

Timestamps:

00:00 Assisted Delivery and Labor Mechanics

03:22 Assisted Vaginal Delivery Options

06:26 Decline of Forceps in Deliveries

10:38 Vacuum-Assisted Delivery Explained

13:54 Vacuum Procedure Timing Guidelines

16:10 Assessing Delivery Options and Pelvic Adequacy

19:26 Challenges in C-section Deliveries

23:15 Forcep Use in Obstetrics

25:50 “Consent Challenges in Childbirth Decisions”

31:43 Forceps vs. Vacuum Delivery Risks

33:16 Birthing Risks: Maternal and Fetal

37:24 Considerations for Assisted Vaginal Delivery

39:56 Navigating Birth Plan Conversations

44:07 Normalize Asking for Help

46:57 Flexible Tubing Revolutionizes Vacuum Use

49:15 Flexible Neck Vacuum for Childbirth

Keypoints:

• Assisted deliveries involve using tools like vacuums or forceps to help a baby out during vaginal birth, usually when there’s exhaustion, fetal distress, or a tricky position.
• The difference between forceps (which look like fancy salad tongs) and vacuum devices (like the KiwiVac) was explained—with forceps generally having a higher risk for maternal tearing, while vacuums can be safer for the mother but have their own set of risks for baby.
• Forceps use is becoming rare in the US, and many younger doctors are not trained in both tools; most providers specialize in one over the other.
• The vacuum method, such as the KiwiVac, doesn’t just involve pulling—the device helps rotate and flex the baby’s head to ease passage through the pelvis, working in tandem with the mother’s pushing effort.
• Not every provider can use both vacuums and forceps, and midwives in the US generally use vacuums regionally; outside the US, like in Europe, midwives may use vacuums more routinely.
• Assisted deliveries make up less than 5% of births, so most people will not need them, but knowing about the process can reduce fear if the situation arises.
• Before offering assisted delivery, doctors must ensure the baby is low enough, the mother’s pelvis is adequate, and water is broken—these tools can’t compensate for a truly “stuck” baby or incomplete dilation.
• Vacuums and sometimes forceps can even be used during C-sections if the baby is deeply engaged or in an awkward position, to help bring the baby up through the uterine incision.
• Consent and clear communication are vital—sometimes decisions have to be made quickly, so it helps when patients have discussed these possibilities in advance with their providers.
• The episode emphasized not to fear assisted deliveries—they’re tools to reduce C-sections and make births safer when used by skilled, well-trained professionals, and advances like the KiwiVac improve outcomes for both moms and babies.

Producer: Drew Erickson

[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Hey guys. Welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today on episode 260, we are talking about assisted deliveries. We’re gonna talk about what those are. We’ve got a doctor coming on, so let’s untangle it.

[00:00:08] Hi, I’m Hilary, a Serial over Complicator. I’m also a nurse mom to three and the curly head behind pulling curls and the pregnancy nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with pregnancy and parenting untangled the Pulling Curls podcast.​

[00:00:44] I wanna introduce today’s guest. She, this is actually her second time on the podcast. She is a board certified OBGYN for 14, maybe 15 now years in Oklahoma. She’s passionate about education and she actually teaches other doctors how to use the vacuum. I wanna introduce today’s guest, Dr. Tori O’Daniel.

[00:01:02] Hey Tori, welcome back to the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:01:04] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Thank you. I’m excited.

[00:01:06] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, guys, this is a thing I get a lot. People don’t really understand like how assisted deliveries work. And so I’m excited to have a real doctor here today because the nurses do not, we, we just hand things. We just hand things to the provider and then they do all the work.

[00:01:21] So I think this is gonna be really helpful you for you guys to understand them. Tori actually works for Laborie and this podcast is actually sponsored by Laborie. And the Kiwi complete vacuum system delivery. It is used globally. In fact, I’ve used it myself, well as the nurse, and it’s designed to give control back to the physician. Whatever your preference or needs are, the Kiwi family of products offers a vacuum to meet them. And I would agree. I was a nurse when Kiwi started, like being a thing. Like I remember, before, when I used to pump up the vacuum, I wasn’t a fan of that part. So it is so nice that we are advancing technology. ’cause I gotta say, as a labor and delivery nurse, there’s a lot of things that are exactly the same as when Hilary started day one in 2001.

[00:02:01] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. I could not agree more with that. So it’s always fun to see an evolution of product that is providing better healthcare for our patients. So I couldn’t agree more, and I was right at the beginning of my training when I saw somebody, pump the vacuum from behind me and that, that was a bit much for me. So I’m glad that we switched over.

[00:02:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. So first off, we’ll talk more about like how these different vacuum systems work, but what is an assisted delivery? A lot of people are like, well, aren’t we like everyone? Unless you’re free birthing at home, which I’m not a fan of. If you’re a free birther, this isn’t the podcast for you.

[00:02:30] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah.

[00:02:30] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: An assisted delivery means that we’re helping you through what, Tori?

[00:02:33] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah, so I mean, you could look at this a couple of different ways. Honestly, an assisted delivery is trying to get this baby to do what we would love it to do naturally. And the baby is, um, known to go through what we call the cardinal movements of labor, which essentially tries to get the baby to flex or put its head straight down and to get in this position, which we call oa.

[00:02:54] So the back of the head is facing the mom’s interior body and trying to get the smallest diameter to come the pelvis. The thing about that is that some babies are stubborn and they don’t want to do that. And patients have all different shapes and sizes of pelvic boney structure and so sometimes we don’t have the best position of the baby.

[00:03:12] So assisted can be a lot of different options. We move patients around to try to get this baby to do what it needs to do. As obstetricians or midwives, we can put our hand inside and try to get the baby to maneuver or rotate, as we like to call it, or we have two options for an assisted vaginal delivery with either a vacuum system or Forceps. And really the concept with those two things is that you’re trying to get this baby to rotate, to get the smallest diameter to come through the pelvis while the patient is pushing, and then you provide traction with either forceps or with a vacuum to be able to assist in that rotation and pull while they push.

[00:03:51] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. First off, can a midwife use vacuums or forceps most across the board in general?

[00:03:56] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: So I would say that really depends on the region. In Europe, midwives are routinely using vacuums. I don’t know about

[00:04:03] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Oh.

[00:04:03] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: forceps but I know they are routinely using vacuums. and as long as they’re well-trained, really we’re encouraging any provider to be able to use, a vacuum assisted vaginal delivery option in the United States.

[00:04:14] That is also very, very regional, but there are. Much fewer regions that are allowing midwives to do a vacuum assisted vaginal delivery. Some of the areas that we previously talked on our, other podcast about, deserts where you don’t have access to obstetricians, the midwives are trained in, kinda outlet vacuum deliveries to be able to have options to provide safe care for their patients.

[00:04:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. and also family practice, like some of our family practice doctors when I worked with them, were able to use vacuums or forceps or sometimes they had to call in an OB to come do those things. Just so you guys know, sometimes that’s an advanced level of care that they’re just not trained to do. So I think that’s important to know. Midwives always have like an upgrade of care. The uncertified nurse midwife always has an OB that they can call in to come back them up for that type of a delivery.

[00:04:58] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yep, exactly.

[00:04:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. What would you call the difference between like, okay, so forceps look like salad tongs. If you’re listening just with your ears.

[00:05:06] If you’re not listening with your ears or you’re listening with your eyeballs, then I will put, a picture of what forceps look like, but they basically look like very fancy, very expensive. I’m sure. Salad tongs.

[00:05:16] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yes,

[00:05:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:05:17] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: And there are a lot of different shapes and sizes of forceps because depending on what your patient is presenting to you with, you want different sizes, and so there are some, that are smaller for, smaller infants. There’s also some that are a little bit more elongated for those heads that have had a lot of molding for an unmolded head that kind of came down quickly, but still needing some assistance. we would have one that’s a little bit, more rounded. So the obstetrician, midwife and or, a family practice doc that if they’re trained to know how to do this, and again, midwives are typically trained in vacuum over forcep, but you would know which one that you would prefer. There’s actually also, forceps for a breach delivery if in fact you are, Trained to do breach delivery with something called Piper Forceps. And they’re shaped differently ’cause the baby’s coming out, in a totally different direction. And so the, the those little salad tongs that you described have to go on the head in a different way, in a safe method.

[00:06:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. and are most doctors trained in both? Like, I’ve probably seen two doctors in my life that were good with vacuum and forceps. I feel like either they do one or the other. What do you think?

[00:06:17] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah, so if you look statistically what’s happening with assisted vaginal delivery across the United States, they’re both less than 5% and about three and a half to 4% vacuum assisted vaginal deliveries. And then forceps, unfortunately, are almost extinct. It’s like in some in some places, not at all, and in others 0.5 to 1%. And that’s unfortunate because if you’re not getting trained in both options, then you have less opportunity to provide people who could be appropriate candidates for assisted vaginal delivery. So back to your original question. No, unfortunately, I find that it’s very rare that people are trained in both.

[00:06:53] I was really fortunate to have, attendings in my residency that knew how to do forceps and some that did vacuum, and so I just hounded my, my attendings that knew how to do forceps and I was taught how to do both. So I, I do both and I think that it actually taught me so much more about why assisted vaginal deliveries work and how they physiologically rotate the baby and what kind of additional force that you need to be able to provide that traction. and it’s important to know both skillset. There’s a huge misnomer that forceps have kind of gone out of practice ’cause they’re so much more difficult to learn. And I, I really couldn’t think that that’s farther from the truth. You have to know how to use them both well. To use either of those devices, but no, most people are either trained in forceps and think the vacuum is not something they want to do, or they’re trained in vacuum and never have even seen a forcep, let alone watched a, a forcep assisted vaginal delivery.

[00:07:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, I a lot of times have people say, oh, which should I ask for? And I am always like, whichever one your doctor is good at using. Because if they’re, again, not trained in how to do a forceps, you definitely don’t want them sticking the salad tongs in you.

[00:07:57] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: absolutely, I don’t want people to be using instruments and devices that they are not well-trained, to use. But I love being able to offer a patient either option and I may, Choose one over the other based on what I’m being presented with. When I first started using vacuum, I did not completely understand the beauty of the rotation that the vacuum provides.

[00:08:18] And then I learned really well how the vacuum works, and I know that it helps reinstitute those cardinal movements of labor and help rotate the baby. And so I know I can rotate a baby with delivery, with vacuum or forceps, and if a patient provides me, um, an opportunity as a candidate. For either one, then I have the opportunity to use either, and so I’m extremely grateful for knowing how to use both.

[00:08:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, you are a woodland fairy. Okay, Tori.

[00:08:43] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah, I honestly think as I’m stubborn, I knew I was gonna go practice in a really rural area, in Oklahoma, and I just wanted to have all of the tools that I could in my tool belt. and so I, I’m grateful, but I think that whenever we go train, ’cause we train, I train, to teach, vacuum assisted vaginal delivery, I will not stop advocating for making sure people get the opportunity to learn both if they can.

[00:09:03] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s amazing. I was just thinking that we wanna emphasize what a vacuum can do. We talked about it a little bit at the beginning. I think a lot of people think it’s just like us just yanking down on that baby,

[00:09:12] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yep.

[00:09:13] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: it can be used to turn the baby, which is not something you really need to know.

[00:09:17] Babies, a lot of times they’ll do it on themselves, but a lot of times they don’t because babies are the worst. And sometimes it is pulling and, and helping a mom. So, a lot of times the doctors will give the mom like a choice. Like at the end where they’re just not pushing very well. You know, you’re in your fourth hour of pushing, as you can imagine, as somebody who does YouTube workout videos, at the very end, I am done.

[00:09:37] I am not gonna be doing burpees on those last 10 minutes of the workout. Right. And that’s how it is. When you push, sometimes you’re like, I am done. I can’t help push anymore. And of course, we also need you to be pushing. A lot of times we’re like, oh, the doctor’s just doing all the work. Absolutely not.

[00:09:52] You are still doing your work as well.

[00:09:53] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. so I think you hit the nail on the head about. The point or the purpose and the mechanism of a vacuum is to reinstitute the cardinal movements of labor that occur with traction. Right. So traction helps that because, and I have actually a fetal head, so don’t, don’t be shocked that there’s no baby, there’s just a, a fetal head. and then there’s the vacuum. So for those of you looking, obviously this is the front of the head. This is the back of the head, and this is that

[00:10:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So This is a podcast you’re gonna wanna watch on YouTube. So the podcast will be on YouTube also. Tori is showing us a baby head, just so you’re aware if you’re just got me in your ear holes. Hello.

[00:10:29] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Thank you for clarifying. I forgot that people are sometimes just listening, but this is really a good visual that I think that people often miss when learning. And I also go through this with nurses at my facility and where we train to walk them through understanding. ’cause as Hilary mentioned, you’re not the one using the vacuum, but I genuinely want you to understand how this vacuum works. Because if a baby is not coming down directly OA with this fontanel or that posterior fontanel, that posterior soft box coming down this way and then out, and it might be turned to one side or it might be transverse or it might be what we call sunny side up or op. We really need that baby to flex and then rotate, right? So the vacuum goes right along that sagal suture just anterior to that posterior fontella or that soft spot. And when you pull through the vagina, so this right here is that vaginal canal, and when I pull down it gets this baby because of the spot. Like the physics guys, we gotta go back to what we learned in undergrad and in grad school.

[00:11:31] If you went there, I hated physics, but you have to know this and understand this flexes. And then if your baby is not positioned as you’re pulling down, it flexes and rotates the baby to get the smallest diameter to come through the pelvis. Now the key to this is that pulling down with this system actually flexes and auto rotates that baby with the pulling down mechanism ’cause it uses the vaginal canal like a pulley system. So we don’t pull up, we don’t do a ton of different movements. With the vacuum, you pull down and then towards yourself, and then that gets that baby to get flexed and then come underneath that pubic bone like it would have done without assistance. And so it is traction, but it’s assisted traction.

[00:12:14] So I still need maternal effort. This system is allowing that rotation to get the smallest diameter. So I should have. The least amount of effort that I should need with traction and Mom to get the baby delivered. It’s not just about traction or pulling it out. I’ve heard that sort of like tow truck mentality.

[00:12:30] I’ve had patients cannot, can you just do this for me? And whether I’m using forceps or vacuum, I say, no, I’m gonna help you. I’m gonna assist, but I really need you to give me your effort. So this is a combined effort that I’m providing traction while rotating and you’re pushing for me.

[00:12:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, you know, I just realized we didn’t really talk about how the vacuum works. Like people are thinking we’re like throwing up our Dyson in there. That is not the case. So it is just a real gentle type suction cup. It looks like if you’re not watching, it looks like a little bagel

[00:13:00] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: yep.

[00:13:01] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: on that has a little bit of gentle suction, that they put on the baby’s head.

[00:13:04] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yep, it goes right here on that baby’s head, and then you’re, the afterward you’re gonna see what I call a little hickey. The formal word for that is a chinon, and that’s because you’re pulling or creating, um, suction on the baby’s head. So it creates a little edema. It pulls some of that fluid into the scalp, and that usually will go away.

[00:13:22] That’s like a hickey slash bruise that goes away within a day or so.

[00:13:25] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and the doctors have like a little hand pump. They’re not, again, turning on their Dyson. They have a little hand pump that they squeeze that gets it to the right, like there’s a green spot that you’re like in the clear that this is when you can pull, and then they release it between pushes to just like minimal suction.

[00:13:40] So it’ll stay on. Right. Because we don’t wanna have to find the spot.

[00:13:43] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Nope,

[00:13:44] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: don’t?

[00:13:44] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: No, I love that you said that. because we don’t, so we were originally trained several years ago, decade and a half ago or so, to release the vacuum in between. But the recommended time for a vacuum is about 15 to 20 minutes in length of your procedure.

[00:13:58] And so even when she’s not. Pushing. You do not release vacuum. You just don’t provide traction. So you leave that on so that it

[00:14:04] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay.

[00:14:04] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: slip off of your spot. Because this placement, which is why we teach this method, is that this placement and getting accurately placed over the spot is super important to get that flexion and then rotation into that smallest diameter plane in your pelvis, and you don’t wanna release the suction in between those pushes.

[00:14:23] So Let’s say the patient is pushed, three different times in one contraction. Contraction goes away. The patient feels the contraction goes away, or we can see the contraction goes away, and then we just sit. Everybody takes a deep breath and the contraction builds. Patient goes to push again, and then we provide the traction. The other thing is that I put my hand, just my finger and my thumb inside the vagina so that I can put my finger on the baby’s scalp and then my thumb is on the center of that cup so I can feel this flexion. And then I can also feel descent of the baby. And then my thumb provides counter pressure.

[00:14:55] ’cause you talked about that cup releasing or or letting go, which is called a pop off. And we don’t. Want to get a pop-off, that’s not our preference. It’s not a safety feature of the device, and so we wanna make sure we can decrease that chance of having a pop-off when the patient is pushing.

[00:15:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And one of the most important things that we’re all watching for when we’re using a vacuum is that the baby is actually descending because of course we don’t wanna try and bring a baby through a birth canal that will not fit.

[00:15:20] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:21] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: so we wanna make sure that the baby is descending. The nurse and the provider are both watching for that, and we have to chart it like there is a lot of charting that the nurse somehow, I don’t know why. Even though I don’t touch the vacuum at all, that we still have to chart as we’re watching the doctor do the vacuum.

[00:15:35] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. And you actually brought up a great point, you know, when you were offering, a patient the option of an assisted vaginal delivery. There are some prerequisites for me to go through and I’m kind of always assessing whether or not that’s gonna be needed. I like to go worst case scenario in my head, and then I tell the patient, Hey.

[00:15:53] This is how we plan to go through the delivery process. I get them to ask me questions. We kind of go through their birth plan with me to tell me what their options and suggestions are, and then I say, you know, if this is gonna happen, if X, y, Z happens, then I will offer you. These two options and I’d like to do that before we really get into the thick of labor so it’s not crisis moment. And then I can just ward off evil juju like I call it. And I go through what the possibilities are. And one of the prerequisites is that I need to assume that your pelvis is adequate for this baby. I either have a recent ultrasound that gives me a weight that I think it is, or I can Leopold and feel how big the baby is.

[00:16:29] I can assess the patient’s. Pelvis and make sure that I feel like we’ve got an adequate pelvis to deliver so that I know that I feel comfortable that a baby is gonna come out. I cannot predict all shoulder dystocia. That’s not the way that this works. Although I would love if we could do that, but I have to assume that the baby’s gonna be able to come out and that I’m not doing exactly what you said, like pulling a too big baby to come through the pelvis.

[00:16:50] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Super smart, and I love that you go over it in advance. Sometimes I wonder if providers are doing that in the office because they never go over it in advance in general that I’ve ever seen because Tori is a woodland fairy.

[00:17:01] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Well, I’m also a hospitalist, so I don’t get the .

[00:17:03] benefit of doing this in the clinic. I think a lot of my colleagues go over these things through the prenatal process, just to kind of say closer towards the end of third trimester, Hey, this, this might be an option. And I don’t always get the benefit either, because sometimes as a hospitalist, I get called into an emergency and I.

[00:17:18] Literally have just met the patient and the baby’s heart tone are down, you know, so indications for assisted vaginal delivery are maternal exhaustion, like you mentioned. The patient is exhausted. We’ve been pushing, for quite some time, and we’re just not getting a delivery, fetal indications where if my heart tone go down and I need to expedite that process. That expedites the conversation. And so I consent a patient for this option, and then once it’s all said and done, I stay and then I just reiterate what just happened, right? Because if that happens really, really fast for them and then all of a sudden they’re like. I don’t even know what just happened to me in all of that. I stay afterward and say, Hey, everything’s good. Your baby’s good. You’re good. Let me just review what we, what we just did, and then if I get the chance, I’ll go back the next day too and just say, do you have any questions about any of that? Because this is, you know, sort of black out patient blacks out for a second with all of that crisis, and so I wanna make sure that they don’t start thinking about it afterward and then have questions they didn’t get a chance to ask.

[00:18:18] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and if your doctor is not the woodland fairy that Tori is, you can always ask those questions. Especially even if you think of them in postpartum and postpartum. Nurses don’t know a whole lot about vacuums and forceps, but they can always call up a labor nurse to address your concerns. Who can just basically say why it was used?

[00:18:34] You know, maybe your labor nurse is still there, maybe she’s not, but we have a basic idea of why it’s used, what to watch for, things like that. I did wanna mention that we sometimes use the vacuum in c-sections, and a lot of people are shocked by that one. Some providers use ’em more often than others I find. But if the baby is really like low in the pelvis or the head’s sort of wonky, which is a very technical term, baby’s head was wonky,

[00:18:54] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Uhhuh.

[00:18:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: a lot of times they’ll use the vacuum to kind of pull baby up out of the pelvis.

[00:18:59] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yes, and wonky. I love that word. I also like, kitty wampus. I use kitty wampus in cat corner and all kinds of weird things, but yes. Okay. So you can use forceps or a vacuum in, a c-section. And again, depending on what you’re trained and what your comfort level is. You know, there are two issues with babies coming out in a c-section.

[00:19:17] one is that it’s been, they’ve been pushing for a while and the baby is really, really impacted or or engaged into that pelvis. And then the other one is a is a patient that may have had a scheduled section, unlabored, and those babies’ heads are not molded. It wasn’t attempting to come down into the pelvis.

[00:19:36] And so it’s just beautifully round head, which some would assume would be easier to deliver. But sometimes those stinkers just love hanging out in the uterus and they’re round and they’re floating. There’s a lot of amniotic fluid and it’s hard to get the baby to come. So you have an incision, and again, I’m just showing for those of you that are listening, I’m showing this baby’s head.

[00:19:54] But if you have a baby coming through the incision, I’m doing the same thing where I’m putting my hand underneath and lifting it so that the smallest diameter is coming up through the incision while my assistant is giving some gentle pressure on the top of the uterus to help get that baby to come out. If the baby’s head is really round and molded, and I cannot get it to come up into the, the incision or, I’m sorry, not molded, or if it’s really molded in the pelvis and I have to get it to come up to come into the incision, occasionally an assisted c-section delivery occurs because the vacuum, I can put the vacuum, on the baby and pull straight up and it gets that smallest diameter to come through.

[00:20:31] Or I could, if it’s like this and just not popping up, I could slide a forcep blade and a forcep blade and pull up to come out. Sometimes, when they’re really engaged, I have to get my hand deep into the pelvis to pull or disengage that suction, and then I can’t get it to flex to come up. So the assisted c-section deliveries occur, but for different reasons.

[00:20:51] I’m not asking the patient to give me that maternal effort, right? ’cause they’re, they have a spinal or an epidural, that this really helps get the smallest diameter to come through that incision.

[00:20:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And a lot of times where people are like, well, just enlarge the incision, but your uterus is actually only a certain amount, so it’s not like a regular surgery where we could just cut you open like a magician. We only have so much room that we can cut, which is confusing when you see on the skin where they could have made it larger, but your uterus only has so much room for us to get into, so that’s why we sometimes use it.

[00:21:18] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: it’s actually, it’s not. I mean, sometimes, sometimes it’s about the incision size, but it really is more about trying to get the baby into a position that creates the best delivery because babies know, they intuitively know that they’re trying to get the smallest diameter.

[00:21:37] I have no idea how that works. That’s way bigger than than me. It’s lovely, but they know to do this. And when I’m trying to get it and I just can’t get it to flex, for whatever reason, the assisted delivery, whichever device I’m using, gets the smallest diameter up there that maybe my hand can’t do for whatever reason in that scenario.

[00:21:56] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. By the way, I extra love the Kiwi vac for C-section assisted deliveries because when I was trying to like not get in the field, but also use the pump and, and listen to the doctor, it was miserable. So I’m so glad we have new things.

[00:22:07] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: That’s awesome. I love that.

[00:22:08] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I also wanted to mention there might be people listening to this podcast who have already had their baby that are like, well, I couldn’t get, you know, failure to progress. Like they can’t push the baby low enough. And they’re wondering in their minds, maybe the doctor could have just used a vacuum and I could have avoided a C-section.

[00:22:22] And I don’t want you to feel like that is usually ever a, a thing. If you are pushing, a baby’s not descending and we’re just thinking maybe your pelvis is too small. We, that is not a point that we would use a vacuum or a forceps. Because we could get into trouble.

[00:22:34] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. You have to have some prerequisites, so your water has to be broken. We like to have your bladder emptied. we need to make sure that your baby is engaged in your pelvis and we describe engagement in your pelvis in like, increments, centimeter increments. And if you are past this bony process in the patient’s pelvis, the baby is past that and it’s plus two.

[00:22:56] The way do we describe how far down the baby is in your pelvis and it’s plus two or greater than you’re a candidate for us to use this vacuum assisted vaginal delivery. Now, if you go back and read historically, if you have nothing better to do with your time and read about forcep evaluation and sort of evolution. They did do some high and what we call mid forceps, where that station could have been a little bit higher. That’s not typically performed now for lots of reasons, but partially because we’re trying to provide the best care with the least amount of harm. And so exactly what you just said, Hilary, we wanna make sure the baby is showing us signs that it can come down and out.

[00:23:32] It’s just some combination isn’t working. And if I can get the baby to rotate and give a little effort while the patient is pushing. I want to do that. So bladder emptied, your cervix has to be completely dilated. So if your failure to progress because you’ve got stuck at seven centimeters, neither one of these instruments are offered for you. I have to have an engaged baby down in that pelvis, and I have to assume that the pelvis is thick enough for this baby to come out. And I do that by either knowing the estimated fetal weight or I have done Leopolds and I know that.

[00:24:03] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And Leopolds is where they just like manhandle you on your belly in case people are like, oh, that’s like a special thing.

[00:24:08] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah, it’s like a guesstimation where I do this little trickery, this little trickery to, to make sure I can guess how much I think, that your baby is. And again, I think we talked about this before, but I can’t predict shoulder dystocia any better than anybody else can. And sometimes small babies have shoulder dystocia.

[00:24:25] And just to reiterate, shoulder dystocia is where that shoulders of the baby. So this diameter I’m just showing from one shoulder to the next is bigger or gets stuck in that pelvis. And so my. Top shoulder, my anterior shoulder gets stuck on the mom’s pubic bone and it won’t come out. And so sometimes small, babies, have this issue if the pelvis is shaped in a certain way or if the, the maternal pelvis is just smaller, that happens.

[00:24:49] So we cannot predict that all the time. But you clearly don’t want that to be an assumption that you’ve got a really large baby. For example, patients who have diabetes, and I know that their babies are going to be big, they also have extra fatty deposits, in that fatty tissue of those babies.

[00:25:04] And so those babies tend to have more dystocias even at the same size of, patients who do not have maternal diabetes.

[00:25:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. So there’s a lot of things we’re considering before we use the vacuum. I don’t wanna ever want you to be like, oh, they should have used a vacuum. I could have avoided a c-section. That, that’s not usually the case.

[00:25:18] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely.

[00:25:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And the way we’re talking, we’re like every delivery gets a vacuum or forceps, but I wanna remind you guys, you said at the beginning, this is about 5% of deliveries, but it’s enough that it’s awesome to know about so that you’re not caught off guard when your doctor’s like, Hey, I, what do you think about forceps?

[00:25:33] I don’t know if you would know this, Tori, ’cause you probably don’t see a lot of providers asking, but do you think they give informed consent really well with vacuums or forceps?

[00:25:41] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: I think that, that’s a loaded question, right?? I think that, I think people intend to consent people, and meet them where they’re at. And so you wanna inform somebody as much as they can be informed to allow them to make an educated decision with you. But. You don’t wanna scare them and make them feel like a c-section is just the better option ’cause there are risks with an assisted delivery. And let’s be frank, right? a delivery, a vaginal delivery is risky regardless of how we look at it. Whether it happens without any assistant with plus or minus an epidural, plus or minus medication, it’s still a very risky thing that we go through.

[00:26:16] And so that’s a complicated question for me because I feel like people consent. But maybe not consent and go through all of the details because that seems so scary. And I try to make sure that what I’m using, the verbiage that I’m using, the words that I’m trying to say to explain what can happen is meeting a patient where they’re at.

[00:26:39] So I’m not using these words that are like, sure. Yeah. Okay. And they have no idea what I’m actually saying could happen. And so I don’t sugarcoat it. I mean, I say a C-section is an option, and these are the risks that come with that. And a vacuum. These are the risks that come with that. And the forcep, these are the risks that come with that.

[00:26:55] And then I also tell them if I have a preference based on how they’re presenting to me, and I say I would, I would prefer to use a forcep on you. And this is why I still say you’re still a candidate for a vacuum if you prefer one over the other. So.

[00:27:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s awesome. and hopefully your provider’s going over this in the office, they should do things like, you might end up getting blood, you might need forceps or a vacuum. Like there are some very things that we do kind of just like in the moment, because a lot of times we don’t have 30 minutes to talk about should we use a vacuum.

[00:27:22] You know, it’s something that’s being done. Sometimes very quickly, if baby’s heart rate’s going down, sometimes it’s like, we need the vacuum, we need it now. We need to go. and in those cases, you, hopefully you’ve had that discussion in the provider’s office and you, and you trust your provider. I mean, hope everybody trusts their provider, although it can be tricky. I get it.

[00:27:37] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah.

[00:27:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:27:38] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah. and so yeah, I think people intend to consent well. I think making sure that you consent and then discuss and then debrief and have conversations when it’s not in the heat of the moment. when it’s the heat of the moment, I. I really dial down to what I feel like is the most important conversation.

[00:27:55] Your baby is at risk because of X, Y, Z. Heart tones are down. I have two options. These are my options. These are my risk with these options, and I need you to tell me right now what you’d like to do, which is so hard for me to say because somebody’s trying. They’re like. I don’t know. What do you think that I should do? And if I have a preference either way, of course I say that if they’re not a candidate, I say, I’m so sorry. I do not feel comfortable offering you this because X, Y, z my recommendation is a C-section. You know, I mean, I just feel like everybody provides different, clinical scenarios to you, which is what makes obstetricians as fun and as, fear-based as we are.

[00:28:30] Because we, there’s a lot of educated fear that comes with, we know, right? You know. You know, as a labor and delivery nurse, it is good when it’s good and it is not good when it’s not good.

[00:28:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and I think a lot of people learn about forceps or vacuums and they’re like, well, those sound really barbaric. But I want you guys to realize that the reason we have these is to prevent a C-section. And most people that come into labor and delivery wanna do a large variety of things to try and prevent a C-section, including the staff, because we ultimately feel

[00:28:55] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely.

[00:28:56] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: that either a vacuum or a forceps when used appropriately by trained staff is less risky than having a C-section.

[00:29:03] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Mm-hmm. and again, if you go back and look at what we offer in the United States, a lot of places don’t even offer a trial of labor after a C-section. So if I can safely avoid that first C-section and offer people who are candidates for an assisted vaginal delivery safely, absolutely. I mean, this is going to help prevent long term possibility or risks. If I can avoid that first C-section. I am not gonna do that at all costs, though. I’m a very, very like, practical person If you have to have a C-section, because that is what has been presented to us, that doesn’t mean you’re damned for life. Right? And I don’t mean to say that harshly.

[00:29:41] I just, c-sections are not a bad word. It’s just. I would love to be able to allow us to get through a vaginal delivery, if you’re an appropriate candidate, your baby is cooperating. All of those things that I say, and if I have to do a c-section, we can work through that too. You know, I love how you empower people to know and to ask questions.

[00:30:00] Just ask questions like, if anybody is getting defensive with you, that should be a little bit of a red flag. if they’re comfortable with what they’re doing, they should be able to converse and have a conversation with you about it. For sure.

[00:30:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Okay. So fun fact, Hilary had a forceps delivery on my first baby. So my first baby was born in 2000.

[00:30:15] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: okay.

[00:30:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I knew what forceps were ’cause I went to nursing school and I had done labor and delivery as a capstone. Didn’t work labor and delivery though at that point in time. I was with the old people.

[00:30:23] Literally thought, I mean. When you’re, you’re kind of like sugarcoating it. Like we just apply a little pressure. I thought he was gonna hurl me across the room. It was a point in time where my baby’s heart rate was down. I could tell that we were having decels. I knew what decels were. And he, old guy, by the way, I think he also delivered, me.

[00:30:40] So not a young fella,

[00:30:41] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Okay.

[00:30:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: came in, you know, and it was one of those situations where they couldn’t get the heart rate to come up. He said, we need, this is to avoid a C-section. And just like pulled the heck outta that baby. And side note, you can still feel the forcep mark on his head, but he is graduated college.

[00:30:56] He has a degree in computer science. You know, at the time I was kind of like, well, this, this could be a problem. And totally functioning human being. He is a boy that’s 25. So not fully functioning, but pretty darn functioning. So that was my, um, that was my. Thing with forceps. I believe he did go through the risks and the benefits, although I literally have no idea because it was very quickly and he had him out.

[00:31:18] He was one of those doctors who was super trained in forceps, um, and had him out very quickly. So that’s what happened with Hilary. But I do wanna talk a little bit about the risks and the benefits. Well, we’ve talked about the benefits, but what are the, some of the risks with, forceps or vacuum? ’cause I think they’re pretty well, a little bit different.

[00:31:33] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah. there are some similarities and then there are some differences. And I think the first difference that people associate between risks for forceps with vacuum is that the forcep needs to go, like you just said, those little salad tongs, it goes around the baby’s head. So if I were a forcep, I’m showing. Sort of where my, my hands, are coming around the baby’s head to sort of sit right on here and be able to get the baby to come through. That in inadvertently widens the diameter of what is having to come through the pelvis because I now not only have the baby’s head, but I also have those blades.

[00:32:08] And those blades are thin, they still widen the diameter of what’s coming through. And so you have maternal risks with the, forceps that can cause, vaginal lacerations or what we call sulcus tears. You can also have, um, a tear on the posterior side, like right where we think of where we have an episiotomy, it can tear. And that tear then can go into, um, near your rectum, that’s called a fourth degree tear. That can have longer term sequelae or long-term Side effects.

[00:32:37] That’s your girl right here. Right here. Fourth degree, still functioning. Lot of para, a lot of, pelvic floor.

[00:32:43] doing pelvic

[00:32:44] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: gotta do your pelvic floor physical therapy. When you get one of those,

[00:32:46] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: those, those, pelvic floor physical therapists. ’cause man, they are really like, they’re in the trenches with us, making sure the patients are doing well. But that’s a risk. And you could still have a fourth degree having a regular without assisted vaginal delivery, having a vacuum assisted vaginal delivery. But your risk with forceps is higher because it’s increasing the diameter. When you put a vacuum on a baby. You can see that this is not increasing the diameter of what’s coming out of the vagina, and so this device does not widen that.

[00:33:15] So you don’t have what I consider those maternal risks. And I just say that, that my maternal risk with forcep is more sulcus, vaginal. Up into the urethra and then posterior or rectal, tears, those fourth degree tears. You still can have risks, to the baby, with forceps and vacuum. And that is a skull fracture or tearing or shearing of the blood vessels that are in, those like in between the, the scalp and the skull, and that’s called a cephalic hematoma or a subgaleal hemorrhage. You do have a slightly higher risk with a vacuum for those fetal scalp, vessel lacerations. And then you can have, you can have a scalp laceration if this. Kind of shears off of the scalp.

[00:33:54] And that’s more of like a skin abrasion or a cut in the skin. Those vessel tears that cause that bleeding, those can be more significant. The ceal hematoma, it’s underneath the skin in a way that it can stop because of the suture lines of the baby. And a subgaleal hemorrhage is something that you can have more bleeding ’cause it can kind of extend over the scalp.

[00:34:16] And so those are risks with either one, but the fetal risks are slightly more with, a vacuum. And I counsel people that. Can people have a scalp, I mean a, cephalohematoma or a subgaleal hemorrhage without assisted vaginal delivery? The answer is yes. It’s just not as frequent. So if you look across, the United States, the subgaleal hemorrhage risk for vacuum assisted vaginal delivery is about 4.2, 4.3%.

[00:34:44] So there is some risk with that.

[00:34:45] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And even, even if you don’t see, a lot of times there is just a little bruising, like you said, a hickey. but whatever you’re seeing on your baby, if you have any questions after an assisted delivery, please ask because we as nurses see it enough that we’re not like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what that is.

[00:35:00] No, we know what it is and we know when it’s a problem and we need to call like a provider.

[00:35:04] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. And forceps can get that bruising, like right where the blades are sort of lying on the bony process of your cheek. You can have a little forcep bruise from that. You can have that chinon or hickey. And we, at our institution and what we counsel and, tell people is that you should let pediatrics know.

[00:35:18] If you use an assisted vaginal delivery, let them know. You assess. They always look if they’re concerned about anything, then baby would get imaging and things like that.

[00:35:25] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And before, when you mentioned the blades of the forceps, that’s just a fun word we use for the salad tongs. There’s nothing sharp on the forceps. It’s all rounded. Nobody could get cut by the actual forcep blade. We just, we just use fun words at the hospital.

[00:35:38] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Thank you for clarifying. There is nothing sharp going in your vagina. It’s this nice rounded smooth, salad tong as she described it. And that’s really what it looks like. ’cause a big salad tong.

[00:35:48] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, so Tori, what would you say to people who are pregnant and are like, sort of freaking out maybe a little bit with this conversation. Again. First off, only 5% of deliveries and I it does it happen more on your first baby? ’cause mine, it was my first baby. Second baby’s third baby. Easier.

[00:36:02] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: and I don’t have the exact stats on that, but certainly anecdotally it does. And part of that is because, you’ve never had something that large come through your pelvis, right? So you’re trying to figure out how to push a baby out and, your pelvis has been new to that. and the other ones are, you know, a multip or somebody who’s had babies before still can have an assisted vaginal delivery, and that may just be either because of that fetal distress that we talked about, if something occurred. And or if the baby is malpositioned and just not coming down in the pelvis in the right way.

[00:36:28] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, babies can get wonky at any stage

[00:36:30] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: love,

[00:36:31] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: children can get wonky.

[00:36:32] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: your, I love your, adjectives. Wonky is exactly what I say to people. I’m like, it’s just coming down their kitty wampus. I don’t know what’s, you know, I’ve tried to rotate, maneuver the nurse. We’ve tried to use the peanut ball and switch. It’s just not coming down. So

[00:36:43] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, sometimes I’ve sat down to chart, you know, in your nurse’s notes and you’re like, fetal head feels real wonky. I’m like, I don’t know how to say that. Malposition, I guess

[00:36:53] not as fun.

[00:36:53] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: for sure.

[00:36:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay, so if you’re freaking out, first off, they don’t happen very often.

[00:36:57] Second of all, talk with your provider in your office.

[00:37:00] This isn’t something that like is taboo topic to talk. I mean, I probably wouldn’t talk to ’em about your 12 week appointment about forceps and vacuum, but if you’re in your third trimester, I think it’s, you know, it’s good to say, Hey, which do you usually use? Because again, most providers only use one. And, do you have anything you wanna tell me about it?

[00:37:15] Right?

[00:37:15] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: And I think that asking is there anything that would encourage you to use one or the other if they know how to use both? And is there anything that would prevent me from being a candidate for this? So again, if my patient is, a type one, type two diabetic, and the baby is huge, I would say to them in their prenatal period. Hey, we, uh, you know, we’re gonna go through this delivery and there are options if I have any concerns towards the end of your delivery. One of them is assisted vaginal delivery. Unfortunately, in your case, I would not feel comfortable offering you that because we’re already a little concerned about the size of your baby, and I don’t wanna make that worse.

[00:37:48] And then the other thing is that talking with your physician about, you know. When would you choose to try it? And then you stop doing it if it’s not working? You have to get a physician who is really, really comfortable knowing when it is not working, and part of that assisting hand with a vacuum.

[00:38:04] And part of that feel with forceps is knowing I have placed this, I have attempted, and I’m not feeling a budge. If I put a vacuum on and I don’t feel any descent or flexion, I say to the patient, I stop. I take the vacuum off and I say. is not working. I gave it a valid effort. I don’t wanna make things more difficult in your C-section, and this is why.

[00:38:25] And then the second part of that is make sure that they’re capable of handling that abandonment swiftly, right? So I need to have an OR team ready for me to be able to go back to do a C-section if either of those options have not worked.

[00:38:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. the other thing, they’re probably like, oh, I wanna put on my birth plan that I do not want an assisted delivery, and I do not put assisted delivery on birth plans because A, nobody wants an assisted delivery. Right?

[00:38:47] And B, it’s such, it’s like made in the moment choice. It’s not like, are you planning to breastfeed?

[00:38:53] Yes or no? Like, it is such a, like this is what’s happening. We’re in the moment. I guess you could, if you’re like getting tired and do you want the assist with a vacuum or are you okay doing it on your own? Like that’s a choice. But, most often it’s, it’s a thing that’s made in the moment, which is a lot of birth.

[00:39:08] I think it’s great to be educated and you’re like, you know, if I, if I still have that effort in me, I wanna push it on my own instead of getting the vacuum. ’cause I prefer not to tear. But that in general is not most of the vacuums that I’ve seen placed.

[00:39:20] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. And I think, you know, we laughed last time you and I spoke about the infamous birth plan. And people love or hate them, I think, and there’s very little gray in the love. They either love or hate. I am a little gray in that zone because I don’t feel like it’s fair to have, patients get so specific in something that they think that they have. A lot of control over. ’cause sometimes I don’t have control over it, right? And so your body does what it wants to do. Your baby presents how it wants to present. The clinical scenario is different with every single patient. So I just sit down and just have a little heart, heart and say, let’s go through this birth plan.

[00:39:55] And then we walk through it and say, okay, you said you want X, but what if? What if this happens? You know, that may change your mind. And so we just have that conversation more organically about what the options are. And I say, I would love for you to be able to deliver this baby without any assistance from me and or a C-section.

[00:40:11] However, let’s go through worst case scenario so we can ward off evil juju and then we can get that outta the conversation. And then, you know, and I know where we stand in case something like that presents and that seems to sort of, you know when somebody comes in and they’re feeling heightened, ’cause they’re like, I don’t want you to talk to me about it because it’s not gonna happen for me.

[00:40:26] I feel like it just sort of drops some of their guard and armor when I’m like, yeah, let’s just word it off. We’ll just talk about it that way we don’t have to worry about it later. And so, you know, we can go from there and that usually helps people.

[00:40:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, I love that war. It’s like the bad juju.

[00:40:38] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah, Yeah, I have, I have a little bit of a black cloud, which is probably why I talk about all these things. ’cause I like to just make sure that people are prepared. and a black cloud is not to freak anybody out, but a black cloud, like meaning, I have all kinds of strange things happen to me. So I have to anticipate them and I want you to know that I know how to handle them and that my team knows how to handle them.

[00:40:56] And I say, if I’m not talking to you. Really quickly in that moment, it’s because I’m trying to make sure I’m taking care of all the steps that need to be taken care of, but I promise you, I’ll talk to you about it as soon as I can, and I just say that to them.

[00:41:08] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I love that. Okay. The other thing I would recommend is learning to take care of your bottom, like

[00:41:12] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Hmm.

[00:41:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: we sort of ignore, like I took a birth class and they were just like sunshine and rainbows. Once that baby’s come out, you won’t have a single problem for the rest of your life because it was so easy to parent this baby, right?

[00:41:21] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: right?

[00:41:21] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And that was a lie. So I didn’t know how to like take care of my bottom. So I think that’s a really important thing to learn. We’re not gonna go into that a ton in this podcast,

[00:41:29] But understanding that you might tear and your bum might hurt more than you thought it was going to. Because I swear with my fourth degree, my bum hurt.

[00:41:37] My other friend had a C-section like a week later and me getting in and outta the bed and her getting into bed was like, I was like, it’s worse for me.

[00:41:45] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah.

[00:41:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: so that’s always a choice that we’re having to make. You know, he’s fine. So it, and then I ended up having vaginal deliveries with the rest of mine.

[00:41:52] So there were pros and cons, but learning to take care of your bottom, learning that it could be an issue. Learning that it even is gonna happen because a lot of people are really caught off guard by how much their bum hurts after they have a baby.

[00:42:01] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Abso, oh my gosh. I feel like this is one of those things we just don’t talk about enough. And Absolutely. Before you leave the hospital, you should ask about, pericare. And we call it pericare. So like your perineum, which is where your labia are, all the way into your rectum. You need to ask, and if you have a third or a fourth degree, you need to be asking, okay, what are my goals?

[00:42:21] How do I manage this? What are the things that I can do to help prevent any other side effects and they should be talking to you about stool softeners. They should be talking to you about these little donuts that you sit on to help provide some comfort. They should be talking about, a spray that helps numb stuff, ice pack, like all of these things.

[00:42:39] Are crucial to help you provide yourself the best environment to heal, but absolutely. And then sometimes you may not even had a third or fourth degree and it still stink and just hurts. Like it hurts. Like your vagina went through a huge transition and you have to talk about that to know what to expect, and then look for signs and symptoms of things that may be outside of what’s normal and know when to call and come in for sure.

[00:43:01] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. let me just give an amen to a stool softener.

[00:43:04] Let me just give an amen to the, I wish I had a bidet.

[00:43:06] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Oh,

[00:43:07] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: If anybody’s thinking about getting a bidet, install it before your postpartum,

[00:43:10] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: I

[00:43:10] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: because I would’ve just sat there.

[00:43:12] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: should get bidets. Everybody.

[00:43:13] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s shocking. They’re so cheap at like Home Depot. Like I was like, oh, this is gonna be thousands of dollars to add to my toilet wrong.

[00:43:20] But if I could have just sat there and ran the cold bidet water on my lady bits, that would’ve been, I probably wouldn’t have never left. I probably would’ve just breastfed from the toilet until it overflowed. I don’t know. But I’m just saying bidets are amazing. And also, I kept my tucks in my fridge. I had a sister-in-law who told me that one, and that felt really good.

[00:43:37] I mean, a lot of people make padcicles but sometimes padcicles, like melt. It can be hard, but just keeping my tucks in my fridge was something that I could do, and I wish I had put ice on actually longer once I got home. But I was like, I literally just thought I was weak,

[00:43:50] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Right.

[00:43:51] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you know?

[00:43:51] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: It’s

[00:43:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I was like, it’s a third degree, but I can just still muscle through it.

[00:43:54] No, I couldn’t just muscle through it. It was miserable and that’s fine.

[00:43:57] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: why we do that. I think we do that to ourselves and we do that collectively as a a whole, we just don’t talk about it enough to sort of normalize asking for help, and you shouldn’t have to be painfully recovering in a way that you don’t get things to help you with the pain.

[00:44:13] I don’t know why we do this, but Amen. I, I, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you look at it, had, a c-section, and then a repeat c-section. My first C-section, I had no idea what to expect even though I was an obstetrician at the time. I was a resident and I was still trying to figure it out, and I was just trying to be a hard ass, you know?

[00:44:28] My husband’s like, what are you doing? Why don’t you ask for help? I’m like, I can do this. He’s like, why do you have to do this, like, let me help you. And so I don’t know why we feel like we have to be, she rock going through all of, all of these of recovery and pregnancy and all of the things, but the tucks pad in the fridge, that’s like a golden nugget, guys.

[00:44:44] So if, if you take one thing out of here, that tux pad in the fridge is where it’s at.

[00:44:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, well, especially, I lived in a very tiny apartment, so the fridge, the fridge was just a few walks away. Now I would be like, I’d have to go down the stairs. I would’ve put a fridge in my room. I literally would put a fridge in my room if I had to go back and do it again, and lived in a larger home.

[00:45:00] Just so you guys know.

[00:45:01] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: we should also put on the the baby registry bidet. I mean, that should be your first number one baby registry bidet. Done?

[00:45:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, It’s so helpful. Laborie, I hope you start building a bidet.

[00:45:13] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yes.

[00:45:13] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: our next podcast with them. Alright, so I think, let’s sum it up. I think we’ve learned that these can be super, super helpful and This isn’t something to be afraid of. It’s another tool in our tool belt. Don’t come in afraid of this.

[00:45:24] And that providers are gonna use, which works best for them. And that’s okay. I think I see a lot of people online mad that a provider doesn’t know how to do absolutely everything in the whole wide world. And that’s that’s just not the way it is. Hopefully, you know, maybe you’re in a group where there’s like a lot of different people who are different at good, good at different things, but sometimes you’re also in the middle of nowhere and you’ve got the one provider and you’re gonna wanna cater to what they do best, which is how we do things. Like when my tile guy comes, I want him to do the best tile job he can do in the best way he knows how to do it, not me. Like, why don’t we do the ceiling, you know?

[00:45:59] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Absolutely. that’s such a huge thing, is just talk with them. Know what they’re capable of doing, know what, what instruments and devices they’re comfortable using, and then don’t steer from that. Don’t ask them to do something that they’re not proficient in doing. ’cause that’s just risky for you, which I know you don’t want. You want it to be the least risky option for you and your baby.

[00:46:18] So a hundred percent.

[00:46:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And also the third thing is I’m so glad that we have advances like the Kiwi vac so that we, we are able to do things better than maybe we were doing before or have another option because I’m not saying that the vacuum’s right for everything, and I think you’ve said that too, but this one is better than the one The nurse would like pump up and they’d be like, come on. And we’d be like all stressed out and freaking out at delivery. It’s so much nicer to have something that one person is controlling and then I’m able to do my other things, and

[00:46:44] Dr Tori O’Daniel MD: Yeah.

[00:46:44] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: think it’s just. I love that we’re having some advances in care.

[00:46:48] Tori O’Daniel, MD: one other thing that I, remembered about the vacuum when you were talking sort of like you had said previously where you have a squirrel moment and the idea is fleeting is that this vacuum, this particular evolution, this part of this vacuum that is so crucial is the fact that this tubing is flexible. So it makes this ability of the vacuum to be able to get to these really mal positioned babies who are op, that sunny side up baby or a baby that is transverse. And if it’s wonky, the term that we use is asynclitic. So it’s just in the pelvis wrong. And let’s say your physician has tried, your midwife has tried to rotate and it’s just not rotating. The thing about these flexible neck vacuum, so this kiwi vacuum gives me ability to offer candidates a vacuum who are mal presented like that. Previously when you had a vacuum that just had a rigid neck, I could not get a baby that it was OP to get a vacuum on appropriately to get it to flex and rotate. And I did not understand that part when I was trained. And that’s partially because I don’t think that my attendings that were training really understood that, which is why I became really passionate about teaching other physicians how a vacuum works. Like what is the actual process behind how a vacuum works and why a flexible neck gives you more options for candidates.

[00:48:04] So if my patient is op or sunnyside up, I can use a vacuum. I don’t just have to use forceps. And those docs that just use vacuums. They don’t even, they didn’t even think that they could have the option ’cause they weren’t using forceps. And if I can teach you and train you that you can show how this will rotate, then that opens up so many more people, which are usually the people that can’t deliver vaginally because those op babies don’t want to deliver vaginally because they’re de flexing and increasing that diameter.

[00:48:32] So to kind of like encompass this, you are so right. The evolution of the vacuum and how it’s evolved to really provide better care is huge over the last 15, 20 years.

[00:48:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, in case you guys are like, well what did the other one look like? So this one looks like a bagel in case you’re not on the video. And the old one looked like the Liberty Bell. So it was like a cone shape. It didn’t have that big thing that a hang on the church, but it was a cone shape, very rigid.

[00:48:54] And so you couldn’t slide it. You were, and more likely to tear people. I felt like, I felt like we had less tears with the new vacuum than with the other one. ’cause they were like trying to slide it in and I was like, the Liberty Bell, not the Liberty Bell.

[00:49:06] Tori O’Daniel, MD: and they still make that, and it’s now what the evolution of that one is that that material is softer, and people use it and it’s still totally okay and appropriate to use it, but it’s only for those babies who are oA where that posterior fontanel is on the anterior part, like this, this, or this, you can still use them, perfectly safe to use them.

[00:49:25] And now they’re soft so you can squeeze ’em. So you can avoid like what she was describing. You can actually squeeze it to go into the vagina, but it cannot get to these positions. So that OP OT positions where you need to get deeper in the pelvis, you need a flexible neck vacuum, which is what this one is.

[00:49:41] And that’s, that’s such a huge thing to teach people that we say. All the time when we teach, you can open up the opportunity for people who are candidates to do that, and babies who are now op.

[00:49:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And so thank goodness for companies like Laborie. I’ll put the other episode, in the comments or in the show link, whatever we call it. but we had another one about, Overweight moms or people with an apron belly and, and you guys have other things that can make those type of things better too.

[00:50:07] So I’m so grateful that there are companies out there who are looking to make a difference to better OB care because I feel like a lot of people are just like not doing that because they don’t want the, I don’t know, they think Mother Nature’s gonna do her job, but she doesn’t always do her job. So I’m grateful that we have things that can help us.

[00:50:22] Tori O’Daniel, MD: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:50:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, which is why we love this video and this podcast sponsored by Laborie. They make, a lot of things that we can use to help prevent C-sections or make C-sections safer, when, if we have to do them. So big thanks to them for sponsoring this podcast. Big thanks to Tori for coming on. I hope you guys understand them a little bit better.

[00:50:38] That they’re not something to be afraid of. There’s something to learn about and just be prepared if they end up happening to you. And also just be prepared for all the things, including postpartum, because we want you guys to have safe, happy deliveries.

[00:50:49] Tori O’Daniel, MD: Thank you so much Hilary, for letting me come on and talk, about all of this stuff. I think it’s important to make sure that you’re as educated, as you can be when you’re going through this process because it certainly is a lot of unknown and a little bit scary if you don’t

[00:51:01] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. All right. Thanks, Tori.

[00:51:03] Tori O’Daniel, MD: Thank you so much.

[00:51:04] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: okay. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I think it’s something that’ll, there’s a lot of fearmongering that goes on, and I of course am never here for the fearmongering. I think it’s important to be educated on it, but again, it doesn’t happen that frequently, and hopefully you just have like a regular vaginal delivery.

[00:51:17] But in case this ends up happening to you, at least you’re educated. I hope you guys will join me for more episodes in the future.

[00:51:23] Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

[00:51:42]

Keywords:

assisted delivery, vacuum-assisted delivery, forceps delivery, Kiwi Complete Vacuum Delivery System, OB GYN, labor and delivery, childbirth, maternal exhaustion, fetal distress, vacuum system, assisted vaginal delivery, shoulder dystocia, c section, birth canal, perineal care, vaginal lacerations, episiotomy, pelvic floor therapy, chignon, subgaleal hemorrhage, cephalohematoma, labor nurse, midwife, family practice doctor, maternal risks, neonatal risks, delivery complications, birth plan, postpartum recovery, Laborie

The post Vacuums, Forceps and Birth: What Every Parent Should Know About Assisted Deliveries appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Big thanks to our sponsor The Count the Kicks App — It is free and available in 20+ languages. Start using daily at 28 weeks or 26 weeks if high-risk or pregnant with multiples. It makes doing a daily kick count easy. 77% of app users report that using the app helped decrease their anxiety about the well-being of their baby. 84% said it helped to increase their feelings of bonding. The app can be a great way to involve your partner or your baby’s older siblings.

Download the app here: https://countthekicks.org/download-app/

Today’s guest is Kimberly Isburg. She is the Communications Director for Healthy Birth Day, Inc., the nonprofit that created the Count the Kicks stillbirth prevention program. She is a mom of two boys and a firm believer in the power of Count the Kicks. She’s on a mission to make sure all expectant parents know about kick counting in the third trimester of pregnancy.

Links for you:

When to start kick counts: https://www.pullingcurls.com/when-start-kick-counts/

The importance of kick counts: https://www.pullingcurls.com/podcast-bonus-kick-counts/

Timestamps:

00:00 “Pregnancy & Parenting Insights Podcast”

05:38 Pregnancy App Tracks Baby Movement

09:24 Mindful Baby Movement Tracking

10:14 Importance of Monitoring Fetal Movement

14:01 Pregnancy Health Concerns

18:50 Assessing Fetal Movement with Anterior Placenta

20:30 Baby Movement Tracking Eases Anxiety

23:16 Monitor Fetal Movement with Anterior Placenta

25:59 Kick Counts Start at 27 Weeks

31:01 Labor Nurses’ Challenges and Solutions

33:03 Third Trimester: Key Time for Testing

35:48 “Daily Kit Counts Benefit Health”

Keypoints:

• The episode features Hilary Erickson, RN, and guest Kimberly from Count the Kicks, diving into frequently asked questions about fetal kick counts during pregnancy.
• The Count the Kicks app is highlighted as a free, easy-to-use tool available in over 20 languages, designed to help expectant moms track their baby’s movement and identify normal patterns.
• Kick counting involves tracking any fetal movement (kicks, rolls, pokes, jabs, swishes) except hiccups, focusing on pattern consistency over time rather than comparing to a fixed standard like “10 kicks in 2 hours.”
• It’s recommended to begin daily kick counts at the start of the third trimester (around 26–28 weeks), which is when babies typically establish a recognizable movement pattern.
• Every baby—and pregnancy—is different; the key is to learn what’s normal for your individual baby instead of comparing to others or strict timeframes.
• Count the Kicks app allows for note-taking, monitoring movement strength, and creating a graph for clear visualization of your baby’s movement history—helpful for discussing with healthcare providers.
• Changes in a baby’s movement pattern (either slower or faster) should always be reported to a healthcare provider, as they can indicate potential problems with either baby or mom’s health.
• Kick counts are proven to help reduce stillbirth rates, with research cited showing a 32% drop in Iowa after the practice was widely encouraged with Count the Kicks.
• Hilary and Kimberly address common concerns such as anxiety related to kick counts, babies described as “lazy,” and complications like an anterior placenta, encouraging open communication with providers.
• Both emphasize kick counting as an empowering, bonding daily ritual—useful not only for peace of mind but as a practical safeguard for mom and baby, and encourage listeners to download the app and make daily tracking part of their routine.

Producer: Drew Erickson

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Hey guys. Welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today on episode 259, we are talking about frequently asked questions about counting your baby’s kicks, so let’s untangle it.

[00:00:09] Hi, I’m Hilary, a Serial over Complicator. I’m also a nurse mom to three and the curly head behind pulling curls and the pregnancy nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with pregnancy and parenting untangled, the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:00:39] This episode of the Pulling Curls podcast is sponsored by the Count the Kicks app. Guys, I’m a firm believer in this and fan girling over the fact that they wanted to sponsor my podcast because it is the app that is going to make kick counts easier and more attainable for you to do at home. I know a lot of you have excuses as to why you don’t do kick counts, and I really think that this app can make a big difference for you.

[00:01:00] So download it in your app store right now.

[00:01:03] Today’s guest is the Communications Director for Healthy Birth Day, which is the nonprofit that created the Count the Kicks app. She is a mom to four and a firm believer in the importance of kick counts. I wanna introduce today’s guest, Kimberly Isburg.

[00:01:15] Hey Kimberly. Welcome to the Pulling Curls podcast.

[00:01:18] Kimberly Isburg: Hi Hilary. Thanks so much for having me here.

[00:01:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes, this is a very requested episode. People are always interested in how kick counts and it’s huge soapbox for me, so I’m so excited that you guys are here. First off, let’s talk a little bit about the Count the Kicks app.

[00:01:34] Kimberly Isburg: So we have a free pregnancy app. It’s available in the iOS or Android stores. it is available in more than 20 languages, so, hopefully anyone can count kicks, regardless of what language you speak. And it looks a little bit like this. Bright, yellow and red. We do have a dark mode in the app, but really, starting at the beginning of the third trimester, you can use this app every day, to get familiar with your baby’s normal movement pattern.

[00:02:00] So, it’s really easy. You just click the start counting button and then you tap. The little foot put on the screen every time you feel your baby move. so you’re not only looking for kicks, you’re looking for things like pokes, jabs, rolls, wishes, pushes, any type of movement counts as a movement except for hiccups.

[00:02:19] Those are involuntary or babies aren’t choosing to hiccups. So those don’t count. But any other types of movement count. It’s gonna run a timer on the screen Until you reach 10 movements, and then it’s gonna ask you to rate the strength of your baby’s movements, because research shows that the strength of movements is also an important sign of your baby’s wellbeing.

[00:02:38] So rate those on a scale of one to five, and then you can finish up by taking any notes that you want. So maybe it’s a question you wanna ask your doctor. Maybe it’s, something you ate that day and it really made your baby move and groove, during your kick counting session. so you can take notes and then finish your session.

[00:02:53] And if you do this every day around the same time. You are gonna begin to see a pattern. It’s gonna create, a really cool graph that’s gonna show you kind of what’s normal for your baby. again, that average amount of time that you’re taking, for your baby to reach 10 movement. So this is just a test one that I’ve done, but what you’re.

[00:03:10] Looking for the screen is not working very well. but anyway, you’re kind of looking for a, a pretty level, line across time. If you see that that line starts to go up or significantly down, that’s a change in your baby’s normal movement, and that’s a sign that you wanna call your provider and go in and get checked.

[00:03:27] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. Do you guys alert them in the app? Like is there an alert where it’s like, this is taking a lot longer, or anything like that, or it’s kind of up to

[00:03:34] Kimberly Isburg: No, it’s kind of up to each person. and really that’s why it’s important for you to do it every day around the same time, really get to know what’s normal for your baby. because every baby and every pregnancy are different. And so a change for you might be different than a change for somebody else.

[00:03:48] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and I always recommend that first week is a lot of just learning your pattern.

[00:03:52] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah.

[00:03:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: will be like, oh, it was 10 minutes yesterday and it was 20 minutes today. I am like, right. So your average is probably around 15. So yeah, learning the pattern is so important. And comparing just your baby to your baby not anyone else.

[00:04:05] Kimberly Isburg: absolutely, absolutely. It’s, yeah, my baby might move, you know, within five minutes and it may take your baby 15 or 20 or 30. So, again, every baby and every pregnancy are different. And the other thing that’s great about the app and that I wanna mention is that, if you create an account.

[00:04:21] Pregnancy profile is what we call it. You’re gonna be able to see that history over a long period of time. So if you start counting at the beginning of the third trimester, 26 to 28 weeks, you’re gonna be able to see 12 weeks of kick counting history, you know, if you go all the way to your due date. So by creating that account, you’re really getting that long term data.

[00:04:40] Otherwise you’ll still be able to see like the last five sessions in the app. but really the key is being able to see that history over time.

[00:04:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Okay, so let’s talk about, I get so many questions. I just had a recently a viral video on kick counts, and so I wanted to go through the questions that I saw most frequently on there, and we can just discuss ’em so that people can really understand how to integrate kick counts in your own life.

[00:05:03] Because I gotta tell you, there were nights I skipped, things I forgot. I was a working mom, and so sometimes it just didn’t happen. Is that the best? Absolutely not. But you would just pick up the next day, or you pick up when you remember, and you try and do your kick count then,

[00:05:16] Kimberly Isburg: Yes, absolutely. It’s again, just being consistent over time and getting to know. The more often you do it, the more consistently you do it, the more you’re gonna know what’s normal for your baby. Like if it is that 15 minute average and one day it’s taking way longer than that, you’re like, okay, this is, this is not normal and I need to call my doctor.

[00:05:36] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Okay. The first one that everybody says is, my doctor says 10 movements in two hours. I think when I started, so I started in labor and delivery in 2001. I think that’s what we said for

[00:05:46] Kimberly Isburg: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: kick counts. but as that is comparing your baby to everyone else’s baby, which you don’t wanna do when they’re in elementary school either.

[00:05:53] Kimberly Isburg: Yes, yes. Every baby is unique. Just like every person is unique, they’re gonna have their own, unique movement patterns, and so the research has really moved away from the idea that you should expect to get a certain amount of movements in a specific amount of time. So the 10 movements in two hours is not really best practice anymore.

[00:06:11] Again, it’s just doing that daily kick count and learning what’s normal for your baby timing, how long it takes to reach 10 movements. And then paying attention to the strength of those movements as well.

[00:06:21] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And because I had crazy babies, if I had waited two hours to get 10 movements, something would, would, would’ve been seriously

[00:06:27] Kimberly Isburg: Right.

[00:06:27] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: wrong. Whereas some people with an anterior placenta, they may just feel 10 movements like all day. And if that’s you talk with your provider, there are specific people that this is really difficult for.

[00:06:37] So that’s when you’re talking with your provider and maybe getting further testing during your pregnancy. But you gotta compare your baby to run your own baby’s race.

[00:06:45] Kimberly Isburg: Yes, absolutely. And even every pregnancy, you know, my first son moved way differently than my second son. And, if I had been comparing them, I would’ve felt like something was wrong with my second baby. But that was just what was normal for him.

[00:06:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, ’cause I just wanna remind you guys, it really depends where in your uterus your, placenta is. And so if your uterus, if your placenta is right here where your baby is kicking, then that is gonna be different than if your placenta is like in the back.

[00:07:11] And so you feel everything on the front. So sometimes that visual helps. People understand how different placenta can change how you feel your baby’s movements,

[00:07:19] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, and that’s an important thing, you know, to ask your doctor too. If you don’t know where your placenta is located and you’re getting ready to start kick counts, that can be a really helpful piece of information.

[00:07:29] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: and it is on every ultrasound. If you guys are like, well, what if my doctor doesn’t know? It’s just part of every single ultrasound that we get, they share where the placenta is on the uterine wall.

[00:07:38] Kimberly Isburg: Awesome.

[00:07:38] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. The next thing is when people say, my doctor said not to worry about kick counts. So just make sure that the baby’s moving during the day. What are your thoughts on that? And then I’ll share mine. ’cause I’m, I’m the cynic in this room.

[00:07:51] Kimberly Isburg: So, I mean, I think. That’s kind of practicing mindfulness, just being aware of movements, and I think that’s really important too. Your baby, the beginning of the third trimester is going to get into kind of a recognizable pattern, times of day where they’re more active, times of day where they’re resting.

[00:08:06] but again, the key is. Picking a time of day when you know that they’re active and counting during that time. we are busy during pregnancy. We have a lot going on. You may have other kids. It is easy to get just wrapped up in your day and kind of forget about when was the last time I felt my baby move.

[00:08:24] And so having this daily practice where you take time to sit down, lay down. Really focus on your baby’s movement. It really gives you that peace of mind to know like, okay, today my baby is moving at the time they normally do in the way they normally do, and I can go back to making dinner or playing with my kids.

[00:08:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, so first off, I think it’s really important to not turn off your brain like when you’re doing kick counts, you’re still monitoring for fetal movement all during the day. Some people are like, well, if you only, monitor it after dinner, that’s not good either, which I agree should always be making, you know, that should always be reassuring when you’re feeling baby move. Second of all. Some of these doctors, I feel like do not wanna be notified when your baby is moving less because they wanna sleep. and that’s the cynic in me coming out. But I just wanted you guys to understand that that could be a red flag if your provider’s like, oh, fetal movement doesn’t really matter. Might wanna look for a different ob. That’s just me. That’s just Hilary. because I think some of them like to ignore it because they don’t wanna see you or take those phone calls.

[00:09:22] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, and I agree like just because your doctor isn’t talking to you about it or isn’t recommending it, doesn’t mean it isn’t important. Like this kick counting is for every mom in every pregnancy. It’s important practice, even if it isn’t something that your doctor is specifically asking you to do.

[00:09:39] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and I would bring it up at appointments. If they haven’t brought it up,

[00:09:42] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah.

[00:09:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: and you’re close to your third trimester, they’re not gonna bring it up when you’re 12 weeks. But if you’re getting 25, 26, 27 weeks and they’re still not bringing it up, bring it up in the office and just see what they say. It’s always a good, communication thing to be kind of like, you know, do they care?

[00:09:54] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, and I think that’s where the Count the Kicks app is a great, it’s a great tool. It’s a great conversation piece, and you can bring it with you to appointments and you can. show, you know, your chart on the app, or you can even text or email your data from your kick sessions directly to your provider.

[00:10:09] And so it can kind of help you have that conversation about your baby’s movement patterns during your appointments.

[00:10:15] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Then I hear a lot. “I should just figure out their schedule. My doctor told me to just figure out my baby’s schedule and make sure that they stay on it.” And again, you wanna be monitoring baby’s movements, but I, that is tricky. A lot of these are so vague that me as a person who really likes boundaries And spreadsheets and stuff. I really like the kick counts because it gives me more of a concrete thing to aim for rather than, “well, is your baby on their schedule?” Whereas if I’m not on my schedule, I decide to go to the mall instead of like work at home that day, then I have no idea what’s going on.

[00:10:48] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Your schedule changes every day, so that can impact your baby schedule as well. we like to say that this app, kick counting is like having a data download for your intuition. You’re still aware of the baby’s schedule, but you’ve got data there to show you like, yep. Today it took 20 minutes just like it did all week.

[00:11:07] and so again, yeah, be aware of your baby schedule if you know that they’re always moving and grooving when you lay down to go to bed at night and there’s a night where they’re not doing that, that’s, you know, a red flag. That’s something that you might want to call your doctor about or go in and get checked.

[00:11:22] But, still important to do that daily practice of kick counts.

[00:11:25] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Okay. And the final one I hear a lot from providers is that later on in pregnancy, baby will just move less. And I can see where these people are coming from because the characteristic of the movement does change. It’s no longer karate and cheerleader kicks because your baby just doesn’t have the room to pull back and really sock you.

[00:11:46] Kimberly Isburg: right.

[00:11:47] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: They’re shifting a lot. They’re just, I always was like, my baby is gonna come out and be a full on cheerleader, right? There’s, they’re gonna be like doing the spread eagle, whereas, and then you see ’em and they’re just like this and you’re like, is that all you were doing in there? I thought you were really going at it.

[00:12:00] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The types of movements that you’re gonna feel towards the end are, are different and more nudges, fewer big roll and kicks more, you know, kind of elbows, jabs. But they should still continue to follow that same pattern, have the same times of day when they’re active, and take about the same amount of time to reach 10 movements.

[00:12:19] They do not slow down. They do not run out of room. They do not kick less at the end of pregnancy. They should still be moving up to and during labor.

[00:12:28] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And if they are running out of room, which could mean that you have less fluid or baby is extra large, you know, this is more than just learning like that something’s really wrong with baby. Some of it is you just aren’t producing enough fluid. I. Right, and you need further testing ’cause that can be detrimental to baby or you have preeclampsia.

[00:12:47] I can’t tell me how many people in the comments were like, I actually went in and found out my blood pressure was high, which could make your fluid lower or things like that. you’re learning about your pregnancy health along with these kick counts. Not always just baby’s health.

[00:13:00] Kimberly Isburg: Correct. Like your baby’s movements are not only a sign of their wellbeing, but a sign of the health of the pregnancy. And we do see a connection between, a change in movements and some pregnancy complication that’s going on with mom. Things like preeclampsia, things like placental issues. it can be an indication, not just that something is happening with your baby, but that there’s something going on in the pregnancy.

[00:13:22] And so that’s why it’s so important to pay attention to those movements and to speak up every time that you have a concern, you know that your baby’s not moving like normal. Something feels off.

[00:13:32] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Now we’re shifting to a segment that I called, I’m doing this instead because everyone was like, “I don’t think kick counts really work. I, I’m doing this instead.” So the one I hear a lot is “I’m just mindful of baby’s movements, and that’s the same.”

[00:13:47] Kimberly Isburg: again, it’s great. Being mindful of movements is awesome. again, you don’t have that like data knowing, okay, I, my baby was moving, but like, how much did they move? how long did it take them to reach 10 movements? That’s what Count The Kicks is really helping you get, it’s a kind of. taking that mindfulness of movements and quantifying it and saying, okay, my baby moved 10 times in 15 minutes today, and the strength was a three, pretty average.

[00:14:14] so I think mindfulness is great, but kick counting, doing the practice of the app is like, again, that data download for your intuition and what you’re feeling.

[00:14:23] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And beyond that, you guys have a study, so, we’ve always said be mindful of baby’s movements, but you guys have a study that you linked to on your site when they integrated kick counts into prenatal care, really pushed it in the state of Ohio,

[00:14:37] Kimberly Isburg: Iowa. Yeah,

[00:14:39] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:14:39] Kimberly Isburg: that’s okay.

[00:14:40] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: that when they started talking about doing the count, still dropped by 33%.

[00:14:47] Kimberly Isburg: in the first 10 years of Count the Kicks in the state of Iowa, which is where our organization was founded.

[00:14:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So, you know, we’ve always talked about mindfulness. Of course. That’s like one of the first questions I get when I, when you come into labor and delivery, how are you feeling, baby move because it’s really important. Your OB probably goes over it at your prenatal appointments. We’ve always said that, right?

[00:15:08] But when they integrated these, the data of count the kicks, which is actually what, Got me going like in the first place. My manager went to a conference, saw you guys and brought the information back to me. And then I was like, oh my gosh, I totally need to write an article on this because this is crazy good data.

[00:15:24] And this was probably like 10 years ago, maybe more than that. it really saves stillborn babies. So if you’re telling yourself that, you’re just gonna be mindful. The data shows that. You know, one in three still births can be saved by doing kick counts. That doesn’t mean one in three pregnancies.

[00:15:39] Kimberly Isburg: right.

[00:15:40] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That means one in three still births.

[00:15:42] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah. And stillbirths, there’s about 21,000 in the US every year, and that’s roughly one in every 177 pregnancies nationwide. So it’s not uncommon, but it’s not super common either. But again, the risk is higher than I think most of us realize, and that’s why we’re trying to talk about it and raise awareness that it is an outcome that can be prevented.

[00:16:02] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: When you guys say the one in 177, does that mean after a certain number of weeks? ’cause that doesn’t include miscarriages,

[00:16:08] Kimberly Isburg: One in 1 77 means it’s 20 weeks and none is what’s classified as the silver. So that includes, babies that are lost in that late second trimester as well.

[00:16:19] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. The other thing I hear a lot is “my baby is lazy.” by the way, my teenager is lazy, so I understand that. but my, she’s not, she does the transcriptions, but sometimes she is, we’re all lazy sometimes,

[00:16:31] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah.

[00:16:31] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: my baby is lazy. I can’t do these. what are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:34] Kimberly Isburg: I, again, every baby is different. I had one baby that just kicked me like crazy and my other baby was much more chill. your baby may be kind of chill. They may be lazy, I guess as you described them. Still important to do it. It’s still important to know that your baby, Is, is taking 30 minutes a day to get their kick counts or whatever it is that’s normal for your baby.

[00:16:59] Again, don’t compare it to your friend’s baby. Don’t compare it to your last pregnancy. Know what’s normal for your baby. And if they are just not quite as much of an active kicker, that’s okay. But again, by doing that daily kick count, picking the time that your baby is normally moving around, you are gonna be able to quantify what their movement pattern is.

[00:17:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And I think some of those people are thinking the 10 in two hours, they’re like, my baby’s not gonna hit that. Maybe they have an anterior placenta or whatever. If you literally, I know Dr. Fran has done some, some things on her page where she has anterior placenta on every baby, and she really only felt a few kicks every hour.

[00:17:35] Or every day. And so if that is you, that’s definitely something you wanna bring to your provider. I would say that if that’s the case, you probably are looking for maybe NSTs during the week or they should be upgrading you to a, a higher risk care plan if that’s really all the baby movement that you’re feeling.

[00:17:50] So I would talk with your provider if you’re feeling like kick counts are taking more than two hours every day, just to kind of get an idea because we obviously can’t stop our lives and

[00:17:59] Kimberly Isburg: Okay.

[00:17:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: just wait for baby to move. For hours and hours and hours. Yeah.

[00:18:03] Kimberly Isburg: Yes.

[00:18:03] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And, but I, when I did them at work, because I tried to do them after dinner, I would try and sit down and, and just use my fingers.

[00:18:10] ’cause we didn’t have apps back in the day. Um, fine too, you don’t have to use the app or if you get, you’re like, you’re at a concert and you’re like, I don’t wanna open the app. Just use your fingers and, you know, just feel for baby to move, while you’re there.

[00:18:22] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:23] And we do have other resources available for kick counting. So we’ve got, wristbands that have like a slider that moves from one to 10. so we’ve got some of those available on our website in certain states. And then we’ve also got paper charts that you can print out, and those are available in a lot of different languages on our website, and anybody can download and print those out.

[00:18:42] So if an app is not your thing, there’s still other ways to count. You can just set a timer on your phone or set a, an old school timer as well.

[00:18:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. okay. The other one I get is “Kick Counts will make, they’ll make me so anxious and crazy. I am not able to do it.” So how do you guys respond to that?

[00:18:57] Kimberly Isburg: We hear that a lot and what our app users tell us is more than 77% of them say that it actually helps reduce their anxiety about the wellbeing of their baby. So again. Knowledge is power. And by doing this every day, you’re quantifying that movement. You’re getting familiar with your baby’s patterns, and that’s gonna give you a lot of peace of mind so that once you do it, you know, okay, today my baby is moving just like they always do.

[00:19:22] I can go on and finish my work or, make dinner, whatever you need to do next. And by the same token, if you have a day where your baby, you’re just feeling off, something’s not right, you do your kick count, it’s taking longer than normal. Again, you’ve got that data to back up how you’re feeling and you know, okay, this is a concern.

[00:19:41] I need to call my provider and get checked.

[00:19:43] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. I will say that also, if you’re just sitting there living in your anxiety, that’s probably not helpful. So I always encourage people, that’s your time to get to know your baby, to dream about this baby, how perfect they’re gonna be. How they’re never gonna have a problem, that you will never have to put ’em in timeout or whatever.

[00:20:01] Like they’re just gonna be. The perfect baby. I dream about like all the good things you have going, like the first time they open a Christmas gift and like they get what’s going on. The first time you put ’em in a Halloween costume when they’re two. It’s like there are so many good moments for you guys coming if you dream about those rather than like. It’s been oh, oh, oh. Like if you spend the whole time just freaking out, then yes, that’s gonna cause you anxiety. But if you take the time to like work on some meditation, just dream about the excitement, then it hopefully will decrease your anxiety. And if you think you’re one of those people who think anxiety’s gonna be like a real problem, just start. Do it for a week. See where you’re at after a week.

[00:20:38] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah. And

[00:20:39] that’s great advice. And yeah, just try it and see how it goes. You’re gonna learn something in the process and that’s also, thank you so much for, for bringing that up. It is a fantastic time to bond with your baby to get to know their personality. It is an opportunity to involve your spouse or your partner or your baby’s older siblings.

[00:20:59] Like anybody can help you do this kick count and spend time bonding with your baby before they arrive. So There are many benefits to it, in addition to just checking on your baby’s wellbeing.

[00:21:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Oh, I love the idea of a sibling or a partner helping you out with it. That’s a good one. Yeah. Okay. Now we’re gonna talk about some complications. We’ve already talked about this a little bit. So the first one is an anterior placenta, which means your placenta is on the front of your uterus. If it’s behind, then that is a posterior placenta. And early on in pregnancy, if you found that you had an anterior placenta, it actually can move to a posterior placenta as your uterus grows. Just so everybody knows. So your most recent ultrasound, usually if you get your 20 week, it’ll tell you which side your placenta is on. but if people with an anterior placenta can’t get 10 movements in two hours, what is your guys’ recommendation?

[00:21:43] Kimberly Isburg: I mean, like you said, definitely talking to your provider and getting advice from them about how you can monitor movement with your anterior placenta. but really, and same like. It may be that you need to be a little bit more mindful of kick counting. You need to sit down, you need to lie down on your side.

[00:22:01] Really take that time to be a hundred percent focused on that so you can kind of, fine tune and like zero in on those movements in a way that you might not have to if you didn’t have an anterior placenta. But really the research does show that fetal movement counting times are similar to other placental locations from 24 weeks and on.

[00:22:21] So it may delay kind of feeling those early movements. But what the research shows is that it’s still possible to kick count and that you should see similar movements from 24 weeks and on.

[00:22:32] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. That’s super interesting because sometimes I’ll have people in the comments who are like, I have a anterior placenta and I, you know, my kick counts 20 minutes. And so I agree that sometimes you have to sit down and actually feel for baby to move, which is a bummer because we’re busy. Right. But personally, I did it after dinner, so my husband would have to clean up dinner.

[00:22:51] I was like, oh no. I need to sit down and do my kick count, honey. there were so many benefits to a kick count at my house.

[00:22:58] Okay. The next complication, well just question is why do we not start until 27 weeks? Because then I get people who are like, well, I’m 12 weeks and I’ve already felt my baby move, and it seems like it’s less today.

[00:23:08] And I’m like, that’s so complicated. But what do you guys say to that?

[00:23:12] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, so the reason that doctors recommend, the beginning of the third trimester, which is around the 28 week mark, or 26 weeks if you’re high risk or expecting multiples. But the reason for that is because the beginning of the third trimester is when babies start to get into a recognizable pattern of movement.

[00:23:29] So it’ll be a little, you’ll still feel movements before that, of course. But they aren’t gonna be as, patterned. And so again, at that 28 week, 26 weeks, you’re gonna begin to see like those active times of day, the things that you do that are, sparking your baby to move. And it just makes it easier to kind of monitor that pattern and those normal movements.

[00:23:51] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. just a reminder that your placenta is so much bigger than your baby early on. And so it can really blunt a lot of those movements and depending on where baby is in the womb against the placenta or where they’re kicking. ’cause if they’re kicking the front, you know, you have muscles and stuff that are feeling that, but it whereas if they’re kicking to the side, you know, it might just be buggin’ your liver, I don’t know. And so you just might not feel it as much because baby’s so small compared to the rest of your body until you reach that third trimester. So I think that’s important to think about. And also as a healthcare provider, there really isn’t all that much we could do prior to 27 weeks, if you came in and said baby’s moving less. That’s something to think about. That’s part of why we do it. We don’t want you to be stressing out at something that movements change and patterns change because we aren’t looking to increase your stress, even though people seem to think that we are online with kick counts. That’s why we don’t start ’em until 27 weeks.

[00:24:42] If you think you’re high risk, though, definitely talk with your provider. A lot of moms are saying they start at 25 weeks and again, those first week or two where you’re mostly just learning the pattern, of what your baby’s gonna do.

[00:24:51] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, that’s great advice.

[00:24:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. Now our kick counts are slower or way faster.

[00:24:56] A lot of people, are like, it’s any change in fetal movement. So if baby’s kicking a whole lot more, you wanna go in. Or if baby’s kicking a whole lot less, you wanna go in. True?

[00:25:06] Kimberly Isburg: True, true. Any change in, in what’s normal for your baby is a reason to go in and get checked.

[00:25:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, out of their normal pattern,

[00:25:13] Kimberly Isburg: Right.

[00:25:14] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: right? So just because it only took eight minutes where it usually takes 10, that’s not a change in your pattern.

[00:25:19] Right?

[00:25:20] so you go into the hospital and the thing I hear all the time is my baby kicked the monitor as soon as we got in.

[00:25:26] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah. And I say, great, like you went in, you listened to your instincts, you listened to what your baby was telling you, you got in there and everything is fine. that’s best case scenario. And you know. Doctors and nurses are there to help you and to support you and to check, um, to make sure that you and your baby are doing okay.

[00:25:44] And so they really would rather do that than find that you, you delayed and didn’t come in until um, something really was wrong. So.

[00:25:53] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and with kick counts, I wanna encourage you guys that it’s not an absence of fetal movement. I mean, I, as a nurse, I’ve had so many patients come in and say, oh, I haven’t felt my baby all day. Total fear and dread into every labor nurse’s heart. We want that monitor on immediately so that we can reassure both you and ourselves at that point in time. But decreased kick counts mean baby is still moving. You’re still feeling baby move, which means they could kick the monitor. ’cause babies love to kick our monitors. We love it. But why is it decreased? Again, that could show, an issue with the health of your pregnancy, an issue with the amniotic fluid, things like that where baby’s movements are decreased, but you’re still gonna feel the baby kick the monitor or things like that.

[00:26:34] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, I mean, research shows that a change in movement is really one of the earliest signs that there may be an issue with the pregnancy. So it’s one of those early warning signs. and also, you know, babies are like us. Their movement is a sign of their wellbeing. So think about what happens if you have the flu or if you have a cold, you don’t have as much energy.

[00:26:53] You don’t wanna be running around your house doing chores. You want to lay down in your bed or lay down on the couch. Your movement changes. And so your baby is much the same if they’re not. Getting what they need. If they’re experiencing something that’s causing them to not feel like themselves, their movement is gonna change.

[00:27:10] And so that’s a really important sign that you wanna pay attention to and go in as soon as you can. Call your provider as soon as you can so that they can check and make sure that you know there isn’t something wrong.

[00:27:22] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Um, I just don’t want people, everyone, you know, when you take your kid into the pediatrician, this is a hundred percent gonna happen.

[00:27:28] They’re like miserable at home, not like getting off the couch, dying tears coming outta their eyes. You take ’em to the pediatrician, suddenly they see the fish tank and they’re like a hundred percent better. So. That’s gonna happen for the rest of your life. But don’t think that just because you went in and the baby kicked a little, doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t still be monitoring you and baby.

[00:27:48] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah. Yeah. And if, again, if you go in one day and everything is fine and two days later you’re feeling things are feeling off again, your baby’s not moving like normal again. Go in and get checked. Call your provider every time that you feel like something is different than usual. It’s important to go in and get checked.

[00:28:06] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. The last thing is “I went into my provider, they listened on the Doppler, baby’s heart rate was fine, and they wanna send me home, like if they go into just their doctor’s office. What do you guys recommend? If that’s the case,

[00:28:20] Kimberly Isburg: I mean, trust your instincts. really if you really feel like you don’t feel reassured, you don’t feel like your baby is moving like normal, trust your instincts and continue to ask.

[00:28:32] Ask for additional testing. Ask to be monitored longer. Ask for a non-stressed or test or a biophysical profile. Ask to check your fluid levels. The other thing is you can show your data from Count the Kicks, that’s the other thing. Pull up your app, show them the chart and say like, look, it normally takes 15 minutes for my baby to move 10 times, and today it’s been an hour.

[00:28:56] And I didn’t get there yet. Like show them the data, so that you can help advocate for yourself and for your baby. You can ask to see a different nurse, the head nurse, you can ask to talk to the doctor. There are lots of things you can do, to help advocate. And again, just the key is trust your instincts.

[00:29:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Two thoughts on that. The first one is we frequently get people who come into labor and delivery and who are like, I haven’t felt my baby move all day. And I’m like, okay, let’s get the baby on the monitor. That’s obviously our first thing. And then we start going through like, when did you last eat? And they’re like, oh, like six o’clock last night.

[00:29:27] And it’s like 1:00 PM And I’m like, why did you not eat this morning? And so that kind of thing is a little bit frustrating for us because you know that you should be eating and those kind of things or you know, Just as a, as a labor nurse, it’s kind of hard to know exactly what they mean when they’re like, baby’s moving less today.

[00:29:43] Or you know, have you been busy? is it Christmas? Like a lot of times at Christmas people will come in and they’re just like, well, I’m just not feeling baby move, but they’re doing like all these family things and stuff like that. And so it’s kind of hard as a labor nurse to know exactly what they mean.

[00:29:55] But if somebody comes in saying, my kick count usually takes 10 minutes, and now I’m to 40 minutes,, and I still haven’t gotten to 10 kicks. I know that A, you’re monitoring it and B, we have data behind it that we really need to upgrade this, care to something a little bit more. As a labor nurse, that’s just what you’re thinking.

[00:30:11] We’ve got data, right? So that’s why I love you guys’ app to help people out. And then the second thing is a lot of people don’t know. ‘Cause you go into your doctor’s office, they just doppler, right? But in the hospital, we’re required to do an NST on every single patient that comes in that’s past their third trimester, which is when you would start doing kick counts.

[00:30:28] And Even if the NST is okay, there are more things you can order, like you talked about. We can do A BPP, which is an ultrasound that measures how baby’s moving in the womb, how they’re, they breathe amniotic fluid when they’re in the womb, like how, like tight their muscles are and all these different things.

[00:30:41] It’s just like a, a mini test to see how baby’s doing. And so we can order that further testing. It’s not just either just a Doppler in the doctor’s office or just an NST. We can upgrade it. but sometimes I think you do have to ask. It just depends. ’cause sometimes the unit is so busy, we’re just like, yeah, baby’s fine.

[00:30:56] You’re good to go. Whereas if you said, I’m really concerned, then I think we’re gonna really take that seriously.

[00:31:02] Kimberly Isburg: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, if you’re looking for advice for, you know, feeling empowered or, wanting to make sure that you are able to speak up if you need to, read the baby save stories on our website.

[00:31:15] Like almost every single mom in every single story says something about trusting your instincts, advocating for yourself and for your baby, the importance of continuing to speak up until you feel like your concerns have been addressed and heard.

[00:31:30] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. I would totally agree. And as a labor nurse, I want to know that if your concerns aren’t addressed and you still feel anxious about it, I want to know and then we’ll go from there.

[00:31:40] Right. It might be further testing, it might be talking a little bit more. Again, I see a lot of people who are like, well, I went in at, you know, 23 weeks with decreased fetal movement. They pretty much are just gonna doppler you maybe an NST if they can get the baby on the monitor. But that’s really all we can do.

[00:31:55] Which is why you know, it’s so important to start this in your third trimester. ‘Cause there really is more testing we can do and more we can do. It might just be like serial blood pressures. Let’s check this mom blood pressure and see how things are going. Let’s check her glucose. You know, there are little things that we can do to just kind of see how your pregnancy health is going.

[00:32:10] Do you guys recommend that you go straight into labor and delivery, or do you recommend going to your provider? What do you guys recommend?

[00:32:16] Kimberly Isburg: Definitely call your provider, and check with them. But again, if it’s after hours, if you’re not hearing back right away, like it’s always okay to go straight to labor and delivery and to get checked.

[00:32:27] You can call and let your doctor know that you’re on your way. But, really again, just trust your instincts and if you’re concerned, get yourself checked as soon as you can.

[00:32:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And I will tell you from a labor and delivery nurse, we have people who come in for this all the time.

[00:32:39] I think people think that you only come into labor and delivery when you’re gonna have the baby, and that’s not the case at all. You come in for bladder infections, you come in for baby not moving, you come in for, extreme ligament pain that you think is labor, but really ends up being ligament pain.

[00:32:50] We have a nurse who’s dedicated to just seeing patients who come in like a mini emergency room for pregnant people.

[00:32:56] Kimberly Isburg: Right. Yeah. So yeah, you can go straight to labor and delivery and they know what to do and to check when you get there.

[00:33:04] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And they’re open 24 7, 365 days a year. You don’t have to be like, is labor and delivery open?

[00:33:09] I can tell you that it is. Of course you wanna make sure that the hospital you’re going to has labor and delivery, and I think that’s important for every patient to know because there are labor and delivery units closing. So you could show up to a hospital that really isn’t prepared. So talk with your provider about where you’re gonna be delivering so that you know that that’s probably the hospital that you should head to if you’re having an issue.

[00:33:28] Kimberly Isburg: And also think about for those moms that live in rural areas or farther away from their birthing center, I think that’s another consideration. If you know that you’re an hour away from the nearest labor and delivery unit, that’s another thing to think about in just making sure that. Maybe you call your provider, but you go ahead and get in the car and start heading that direction so that you can get evaluated as soon as possible.

[00:33:49] ’cause hours and minutes really do matter when there is an issue in pregnancy, and so the sooner you can get checked, the sooner you’re gonna have a chance to address anything that’s going on.

[00:33:59] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. And I absolutely hate the fact that we have so many post or pregnancy deserts out there. So many people are driving long distances to their labor and delivery.

[00:34:08] And I’m not talking about the people who pass like five hospitals on the way ’cause they’re picky. Right. And they want a specific one. I’m talking about people who that is their option. Yep. So we gotta work on that too. We have so much to work on. But kick counts is something that you can do for you and your baby’s health every single day, and I think it’s really gonna reassure you if you think you’re gonna be anxious or you think your baby isn’t gonna do it.

[00:34:28] My tip is to give it a try. Commit to try for a week, see how you’re feeling after the week, because that week is really just learning about your baby’s pattern. And then see where you’re at after the week.

[00:34:39] Kimberly Isburg: I love that advice.

[00:34:40] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Because I’m an anxious person. I get it. I would sit there and be like, it’s been 12 minutes and we’re only to eight counts.

[00:34:46] And yesterday we were at 10 minutes. I get that. But again, you’re looking for a pattern.

[00:34:50] Kimberly Isburg: Yes. And the more, again, the more data you have, the easier it’s gonna be to see that pattern. So

[00:34:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: yes. Alright. Thank you so much for coming on Kimberly. Do you have anything else to tell the pregnant mamas out there?

[00:35:00] Kimberly Isburg: I just wanted to share our app now has a contraction timer as well. So, another tool and feature that’s on the Count the Kicks app that you can use, once you get close to, the end of your pregnancy and it’s time for labor to start. You can use that to time your contractions and help inform you on when it’s time to head to the hospital or call your midwife or doctor.

[00:35:20] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, it’s a great app that you’re gonna be able to find lots of use for. it’s not something that is just one thing. You can get lots of information from it. So the other thing I gotta say is. Download the app, get in your phone, download the app, especially if you’re like 25 weeks and it’s already on your phone, you’re ready and set up to do your kick counts once the big day comes in your 27 weeks.

[00:35:38] Kimberly Isburg: Yep. And you can set reminders right in the app. So, it’ll send you a notification every day when it’s time to count. So, really easy to use.

[00:35:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes, please do your kick counts, guys. It’s a huge soapbox for me because the less still births the better in my mind. And I have found still births and I’ve definitely taken care of still births moms and we wanna decrease them as much as possible.

[00:35:59] And this is something we can do has been proven to decrease still births. Yes. Alright. Download the app. Do your kick counts. Let’s go team.

[00:36:07] Kimberly Isburg: Thanks Hilary. I totally agree.

[00:36:09] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

Keywords:

kick counts, fetal movement, Count the Kicks app, anterior placenta, pregnancy monitoring, stillbirth prevention, third trimester, baby movement patterns, contraction timer, prenatal care, high risk pregnancy, labor and delivery, amniotic fluid, monitoring baby kicks, placenta location, pregnancy complications, non-stress test (NST), biophysical profile (BPP), pregnancy anxiety, doctor/patient communication, pregnancy apps, Healthy Birthday nonprofit, kick count reminders, ultrasound, pregnancy health, mindful of baby’s movements, reduced fetal movement, fetal monitoring, pregnancy data tracking, pregnancy deserts

The post Kick Counts Made Simple: FAQs, Expert Tips, and Why It Can Save Babies’ Lives appeared first on Pulling Curls.

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Today’s guest: Stephanie Straub is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Group Private Practice Owner in Syracuse, New York. She specializes in reproductive and maternal mental health, supporting women and families throughout their perinatal journey. When she’s not working she spends her time outdoors, watching junk reality TV, or reluctantly exercising. She is also the proud mother of two beautiful and active daughters. Find here here: www.cnytherapysolutions.com

Links for you:

Stephanie’s other episode (110) : https://www.pullingcurls.com/podcast-110-postpartum/

Timestamps:

00:00 “Bridging Parenthood Preparedness Gaps”

03:19 Inclusive Parenting Dynamics

06:49 Parental Shifts and Responsibilities

11:11 Navigating Partnership Dynamics

15:09 “Sunday Sit-Down: Weekly Planning”

17:45 “Prepping Kids for Vacation”

19:54 “Fair Play: Household Task Strategy”

23:02 “Weekly Meal and Relationship Check-In”

28:34 Navigating Life’s Changing Roles

30:57 Traditional Male Provider Stress

34:46 Empowering Others Through Support

38:54 “Teaching Kids ‘Notice and Do'”

42:13 Postpartum Challenges and Encouragement

43:48 “Sunday Sit Down Reflections”

Keypoints:

• The episode mainly focuses on changes in marital roles, particularly after a new baby is born and through various life changes.
• Hilary Erickson and Stephanie Straub discuss how marital roles are defined differently for each couple, emphasizing their responsibilities and tasks.
• There’s recognition of how support shifts postpartum, with Stephanie highlighting how things like taking a shower become major accomplishments.
• A focus was placed on how partners, especially new dads, also experience significant role changes during postpartum periods.
• Hilary shared insights from her birth class creation, emphasizing the importance of partners understanding and getting on the same page.
• They delve into the concept of the mental load, specifying how it’s often invisible but heavily carried by one partner, usually women.
• The “Sunday sit down” was introduced as a strategy for couples to plan the week and share responsibilities to balance the mental load.
• Hilary pointed out how roles naturally shift over time with children growing up, like when they start driving or start going to school.
• The discussion included how societal expectations shape gender roles and how they affect parenting dynamics.
• They emphasize the importance of communication and being on the same page to handle changes in family dynamics and reduce potential conflicts.

Producer: Drew Erickson

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Hey guys, welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today on episode 258, we are talking about changes in marital roles. Let’s untangle it.

[00:00:07] Hi, I’m Hilary, a serial over complicator. I’m also a nurse, mom to three, and the curly head behind Pulling Curls and The Pregnancy Nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop over complicating things, and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with Pregnancy and Parenting Untangled, The Pulling Curls Podcast.

[00:00:37] This episode of The Pulling Curls Podcast is sponsored by Family Routines. If you are looking to make life easier, teach your kids the things they need to know, and prioritize what’s really important to you, come join us in Family Routines.

[00:00:50] Super excited for today’s guest. This is her second time on the Pulling Curls Podcast. She is a clinical social worker and a group private practice owner in Syracuse, New York. I found her on Tik TOK with mama therapy. I absolutely love her account. You totally need to follow her. I want to introduce today’s guest, Stephanie Straub.

[00:01:07] Hey, Stephanie, welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Hi, Hilary. Thank you for having me. I’m glad to be back. Yes. I’m so excited for our new format. We’re talking a little bit longer and it’s going to be so good. Okay. So today we are talking about marital roles. Stephanie, tell me like, what’s a definition of a marital role?

[00:01:25] Stephanie Straub: All right. Coming in hot with a hard one. I think the thing that makes this such a difficult subject is the definition is different, right? For it depends on the individual couple, but in general, I think it’s the responsibility, the task. The energy that each partner brings to the partnership, to the marriage.

[00:01:46] And specifically, my expertise is in providing support after a baby’s been born and when we’re kind of in the postpartum and parenting stage.

[00:01:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And marital roles just go out the window at that point.

[00:01:58] Stephanie Straub: I think a lot of things go out the window

[00:02:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: For the woman, right? Because you feel horrible. You’ve had a major medical, which I think a lot of people don’t really like look at it that way, but they should, especially partners should be looking at it that way.

[00:02:11] You know, my appendix perforated last fall and when I came home, like I was like, I am going to get back to regular life. And I didn’t, Stephanie. I could barely get to the shower. So, you know, when something big happens, things change.

[00:02:27] Stephanie Straub: Because you’re a doer and a go getter and it’s like, okay, I could stay on top of things.

[00:02:32] And then all of a sudden something happened, like a surgery or like a new baby. That all of a sudden, it’s a miracle if you took a shower that day, that was a good day, right? It’s like a departure. Yeah, it’s like dating all over again.

[00:02:49] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: This is actually why when I, when I created my birth class like forever ago, over 10 years ago, I was like, how do I want to make mine different? Because I think the thing I brought to the table was that I’ve now been married 27 years. And I really understood how the dynamic changes and how little your partner understands about how things are going to change when baby comes home or what to expect and all those different kinds of things.

[00:03:11] And if you could just get on the same page, even like loosely on the same page, it really can make a difference. when that baby comes home.

[00:03:18] Stephanie Straub: Yeah. I don’t want to take, you know, if, if we’re speaking about kind of heterosexuals, cisgender roles, right? I don’t want to take the male out of the equation or the non birth.

[00:03:31] If, if, if it’s a same sex or relationship, I don’t want to take the non birth partner out of that because their world has also changed as well. But I think we focus so much on what’s going to happen. Getting, like, getting to the point of labor, delivery, bringing the baby home, taking care of the baby, that we kind of forget there are two other major layers that are going through something here, and there are going to have to be adjustments made on both sides.

[00:03:59] Of course, I’m very protective of the new mother because they just went through a major medical event. But for the dads or the partners, like, it’s happening to them too. That’s something major is happening. It can really throw you for a loop and it can impact the room.

[00:04:15] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I will say that the longer, the further I got away from having babies of my own, the more I looked at the dads and felt a little bit more sorry for them.

[00:04:24] You know, right after I have a baby, I would just be like attacking those dads with my eye daggers, right? If they were like, in the corner, because I’m at a stage where my sons are closer to having babies than we are, right? Yeah, my youngest is now 16. So yeah, hopefully they have a baby in the next 16 years.

[00:04:44] Stephanie Straub: Yeah. Teach men how to do this. Do a real good job letting women know what their roles should be, right? I think we do. It’s a detriment of a lot of folks who struggle with balancing it all, but I don’t think it’s good of a job talking to young boys, young men, and new parents, new male fathers about what should their role look like in terms of being an emotional support, in terms of recognizing the invisible mental load, in terms of stepping into that space.

[00:05:15] You know, and I don’t want

[00:05:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: to turn off the people not having babies, too, because I think this applies to any major life event changes. Mom goes back to work. Dad goes back to work. Any type of thing like that. I think that this conversation relates to all big. Changes in family.

[00:05:31] Stephanie Straub: That’s a very good point. I start out with a lot of times people who are pregnant are really postpartum.

[00:05:36] They stay on with me, which I’m going to take as a compliment. They enjoy the work we’re doing. They feel good about it. It seems to be supportive, but not working with people who have kids who are five years old. I’ve been working with them since they were pregnant or people who just start with me later.

[00:05:51] And this is a huge mistake of… You know, maybe they were the go getter and the do it all and the manager, but then, and once we add, you know, career and babies or a whole, a home and, and now your parents are aging, you’re taking, like the stakes get higher, the responsibilities. And it’s like, Oh, like I can no longer do it all by myself.

[00:06:14] And they’re trying to call their partner in, the partner really hasn’t had to fill that space yet because they’ve been. They’ve been doing it, like they’ve been doing it on their own at that, and so it’s a big adjustment for both partners of like, I don’t like having to ask for help, so now I have to do it, right?

[00:06:32] And the, and the other partner is kind of like, I don’t know how to help. I don’t know how, I don’t know how to help. I don’t know. So tell me how to help. Well, then that feels like now I’m doing your mental work. Nobody told me what to do. You know, it’s this whole snowball effect. And then people come in here and they say, what do I do?

[00:06:49] So

[00:06:50] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And I think five is a big time where things shift because you’ve got one going to kindergarten. A lot of times then the mom’s like, I’m going to pick up more time at work. Um, you know, there’s, somehow we think their kids are going to go to school and that, like, our responsibility ends from eight to three or whatever, but for me, I then picked it up by helping more in the classroom, and I was, I was an idiot and was a PTA president, right?

[00:07:13] Like, we all Make choices that aren’t always the best, but you know, I think we look at this and we’re like, oh, we got through the postpartum thing, but I think all through parenthood, we’re in a zone right now where my youngest will soon be able to drive, right? And so that’s a big load off of high school.

[00:07:29] In high school, you are literally just a taxi driver. And now that we’re going to eliminate that in these coming months, what does that look like moving forward? How can we rebalance the load if one was the driver more, one wasn’t?

[00:07:41] Stephanie Straub: Right. Right, and I think, I think things have evolved where this generation’s partners, like, they might be doing more than their dads and their grandfathers did, but there’s still this issue with the mental load.

[00:07:57] Somebody still maybe has to tell them that something needs to be done, and that’s a lot. That’s a lot. And they’re willing to do it, but they might not recognize it needs to be done without the being instructed to do that. So I acknowledge that that’s not progress, but I think the demands on the American family have evolved a lot faster than these, these roles, marital roles in marriage and parenting.

[00:08:24] So as the demands on the family are increasing. Right? The, the shifts are not kind of shifting, uh, at the same rate.

[00:08:33] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah.

[00:08:34] Stephanie Straub: Yeah.

[00:08:34] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And this whole mental load thing is something that is just like, women have always talked about it, right? Like we’re in charge of getting all the presents. We’re in charge of making sure kids get their yearly checkups, even if the part, even if our partner will take them to the checkups or come with us and support us in the checkups or help us pick a pediatrician.

[00:08:50] A lot of us still have all the kind of the mental work of that little task list that we’re like. Okay, they’re turning one. We also need to get an appointment. Okay, we also need to get a dental appointment. Okay. I don’t think we talked about that the first 15 years of my parenting. Maybe 12 years. I think it’s just in the last five years, maybe, that this has really started to come up, that people are verbalizing, because I would just be like, why do I have to make the to do list, right?

[00:09:14] Stephanie Straub: Yeah. Yeah. So interestingly enough, I was working with a client a while back who was struggling with this in their partnership and she saw me for therapy. Her partner was also in therapy and God bless her partner, went to therapy and said, my wife is asking this from me. I’m really struggling. I don’t know how to do it.

[00:09:34] And that therapist told her partner. It’s a list of the things you could do that would help reduce her mental load. Now I have to write a list of what you could do to reduce my mental load. Whereas, I think the frustration is we can see the garbage is over. Both can see the garbage is overflowing. Or we both know that kids need to get their teeth cleaned every six months.

[00:10:01] We both know, right? And what’s huge is Default parent that that’s what it’s on. And again, that can work for a certain amount of time until it doesn’t. It can really create a wedge in our, in our approach. So.

[00:10:18] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And honestly, the default parent, it changes, right? So just recently our, our school likes to change the communication method about every six months, I swear.

[00:10:28] And so I was getting the emails and my husband wasn’t getting the emails because I had gone through and clicked all the 600 boxes that I needed to get the emails and he was just like, whatever. But, you know, my appendix ruptures. And I’m still like, Hey, did you know that Paige has testing today? Hey, did you know, you know, and I’m like, why is why we are both parents?

[00:10:47] We both have email. Why is this always falling on me to check the email and know what’s going on with her at school where it’s had worked prior to that? Because I again was fully functioning and had was right, right.

[00:11:00] Stephanie Straub: Um, but

[00:11:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: you never know, like there was no, we didn’t plan my appendix to rupture. You just never know.

[00:11:05] Or I go to a conference and all of a sudden I’m at the conference and I’m having to send him a text and be like, did you see the email? And he goes, what email? And then I’m like, right.

[00:11:14] Stephanie Straub: Yeah. And so I think there’s a couple of things that we can do around this to address it. And again, it works until it doesn’t work.

[00:11:21] So if you’re in that role, there’s typically one person in the partnership, it’s a little bit more of the manager and the plan B, one who is and one who isn’t, and then they marry each other. And so there is necessarily an issue or a dysfunction in one person being a little bit more on top of these things, or just maybe it’s a little bit more aware, but it’s when we couple.

[00:11:43] This person into partnership, do they hop on board? But I think one thing that people who are the doers and that they have to struggle with is watching something potentially fall apart or crumble, right? A ball get dropped and watching somebody struggle and the tragic and the desire to swoop in and prevent that and fix that.

[00:12:06] Right? For the other person. And I think sometimes it has to be, because it’s a big deal thing. And I think sometimes it does have to be. You don’t have to… The mistake can be made, the ball can be dropped, made out of rubber, it’ll bounce back. Sometimes they’re made out of glass and they won’t, right? And so you do have to step in.

[00:12:26] Just let the mess up happen. Because there is no greater teacher and it works way better if you’re saying you need to do this and you need to do that. So I think sometimes the person who is the doer and the planner and the manager needs to step back even if we know Something’s like something’s maybe not being done the way we would do it.

[00:12:47] Maybe something’s gonna be missed. We can let it happen. We can let it happen. And if there’s a consequence or repercussion Right? That will be the learning tool.

[00:12:57] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. Or it’s just a different way to do something, right? Because I worked, I worked dinner time when my kids were little. I worked 3 to 11 and my husband wouldn’t plan meals every day like I would.

[00:13:08] So a lot of times it was mac and cheese or like fried rice, just kind of like whatever. He was feeding the children, they were getting fed, but I was bothered that it wasn’t the way that I was doing it. And finally a friend was just like, you just have to let him do it the way he’s going to do it. And then if you want to, you load up extra vegetables on your day.

[00:13:25] Stephanie Straub: Yes. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a great point of just because it’s different, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s wrong, you know, and, and, and that’s okay. And we can sit back and we might always feel some level of distress about it, right? But we can sit in that, that distress.

[00:13:44] In pursuit of what’s best for the relationship because if you are harping on, Hey, I need you to help out with dinner and then they help out with dinner and they’re like, no, not that way. Well, what’s that in the relationship? That’s not going to feel good for your partner and creates a marital rut.

[00:13:58] Where we’re kind of parentifying one partner over the other, that’s going to wear everyone down. So it’s important where we can to sit back.

[00:14:08] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I totally agree. I think that it is hard, especially when you feel like, these are my kids, we’re ruining them. You know, especially with young kids, like teenagers I’ve given up ruining them.

[00:14:19] And especially, my daughter should know that stuff is going on at school. She’s a sophomore in high school. If they’re having testing, it really should be her job to be like, Hey, we have testing tomorrow. I’ll need a ride home early or whatever the case may be. Right. But I, of course, wanted to swoop in and make sure that she was just taken care of in every little need.

[00:14:36] Stephanie Straub: Sure. And again, I’ll go back to that, that trusty old soapbox. That’s kind of what we’re told to do. Like, right. That we’re kind of the emotional caregivers for everybody and everybody, everybody and everything. Right? And that’s kind of what our role is. And if something happened, like we feel unnecessarily a lot of the times guilty about it.

[00:14:57] Yeah. One thing that I encourage for couples that I, that I work with, and I say couples, I don’t actually do couples work any longer, but I do couples work by proxy, if that makes any sense. Right? So I’m working with the individual they’re coming in. I recommend this to pretty much everyone and it’s called the Sunday sit down.

[00:15:15] I would love to give credit to whoever I, wherever I picked this up from, but, and it doesn’t have to be Sunday, but I like the observation, down on a Sunday evening with your partner. And we will look together at the calendar and somebody might be more of the leader in in the partnership and the pairing where they’re the one who’s going to come in with a suggestion to do it.

[00:15:37] And they’re the one who might sit down and say, okay, remember, we have let’s do it at seven. And you look at every coming up in the next 7 days. This is where this kid needs to be at this time in this day in this. Instead of saying, instead of positioning oneself to say, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, I’ll do it, right?

[00:15:57] We just say, all right, all right, I’m gonna do that. Or, you know, there’s a dentist appointment on Thursday that needs to be, Joey needs to be taken to. Who’s gonna do that? Instead of positioning oneself as the delegator of the test, Really allow yourself to be in partnership with your partner and together decide who’s going to take on ones.

[00:16:21] And I think that that really helps because there’s no assumption it’s discussed and there’s not one person who is in charge of giving out the task and decided to put together. So while there may be one person who might more aware of the tasks, that’s the starting points. Right? Because once the person takes them to the dentist appointment, well, what happens at the end of that dentist appointment?

[00:16:48] We make the next appointment, right? And now, now they’ve scheduled the next appointment and they’re the keeper of that mount. They’re the one who’s bringing it. Does that make sense?

[00:16:58] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. Yeah. It is crazy how much, I don’t know if it’s just women, but we just, all the things that are in our brain that don’t ever come out.

[00:17:08] Um, I think a Sunday sit down, especially like birthday parties, that was always just like… my kid would get a birthday party invitation at school and I would just crumble because I’d be like, Oh my gosh, we have to go to the store and find a present. I’m going to have to get him to the birthday party. I’m going to have to pick him back up or I had to stay at the birthday party.

[00:17:24] You know, the whole time, whereas my husband would be like, great, you’re going to Cooper’s birthday, right? But he didn’t realize that, you know, there was the getting the gift there was, and he’s a much better about this now. And I just think it took some time to be like, can you take her to get the gift? To verbalize all those things that come in our head with the invitation.

[00:17:44] Right?

[00:17:45] Stephanie Straub: Yes. And I had another place that I was working with that was just planning a vacation. You know, and it was like a spring, spring or February break. So, you know, they have to pack the kids, but it’s not as simple as like getting the stuff from, from last season and throwing it in a suitcase. You know, the funny thing about kids, they grow up.

[00:18:03] Yes. It’s all last summer. Fight not. When we go to Florida, and if they don’t, then I have to go and get new stuff or go shopping for new stuff, and we have to try that on, right? And the partner was unaware of this. And there’s one BAM superwoman in the partnership that like kind of does it all, and, and that’s like a badge that they wear.

[00:18:28] And, but they burn out, right? So they’re not talking about the fact that they’re doing this stuff. And so again, until they’re maxed out and now they’re like, and burn out. So, so yeah, so it wasn’t until they shared with their partner, Oh my gosh, I was so stressed out at work today because I was thinking about this.

[00:18:45] And their partner was like, wait, what? I had no awareness that this is what was going on behind this. Yeah.

[00:18:52] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Trip planning is a big one with a mental load, right? Because my husband’s just like, I’ll put the bags in the car, right? Like he’s just thinking, we’ll just get things. It’s kind of like that the actual tasks of the trip, right?

[00:19:07] Yeah. The, instead of like the finding the hotel, booking the rental car, for me, that was always a really tough time. And then we would get on the vacation and things would start to go wrong. And I would blame myself that things were going wrong, even though I had done everything that I could. Right. Have you?

[00:19:22] Is Stephanie, am I the only one here?

[00:19:25] Stephanie Straub: No, no, no. I hear that. Yeah. How talk about the things that need to be done in the home send a message. Like, I need you to empty the dishwasher. Can you help me get the kids back? That kind of conveys, it sends a message that this is my task, that you’re Give helping me out with this is a favor you’re doing for me as if a dishwasher or the bathing of the kids It’s only my responsibility so I think to Talk about these things like like Joey has a dentist appointment this week instead of saying I need you to take Joey to the dentist Right, or can you help me in taking Joey to the dentist?

[00:20:06] I think it kind of shifts the vibe and the tone around and a great tool for this the book Fair Play Is, and there’s a podcast and there’s also a documentary called Fair Play. It gives some strategy, real strategies. And the book actually comes with, or you can order with the book, the sets of cards. And these cards, all the different jurisdictions in the home and the family.

[00:20:33] And the couple’s down and they divvy up. Okay. Who’s going to do what? And when it comes to something like birthday party, right? It’s if you take on the kid’s friend’s birthday parties, it is from conception to execution. So if, if Joey, this imaginary child, Joey, Joey gets an invitation, then the parent who’s involved in that, whose jurisdiction that is, they get that invitation and the other parent doesn’t do anything about it.

[00:21:02] That’s your job. And we don’t go in there and micromanage to make sure it’s getting done a certain way. It’s that parent’s job. And from, okay, and I’m going to put it on the calendar and I’m going to make sure that, that the gift gets purchased and I’m going to make sure that they get there, you know, or I coordinate for a carpool or whatever, right?

[00:21:20] That is that parent’s job, and the other parent has to sit back and let it happen without their in micromancy yet.

[00:21:27] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: So what do you do though if their appendix bursts, right? And then Joey as a party, so then is that they saying, Hey, we have a party on Saturday, can you help me? Is that the point when you say, can you help me?

[00:21:39] Get Joey to the party, right, because we’re still gonna, stuff’s gonna happen, people get sick.

[00:21:43] Stephanie Straub: I’ve worked with a couple that, that uses these cards, and they sit down every so often, and they, like, re divvy out the cards, because, again, like, things change, you know. I have a 14 year old and 11 year old, and dad would do haircuts.

[00:21:58] Well, it only took one really bad haircut for my oldest daughter, about a year and a half ago. And it was like, we can no longer just take them to the little hole in the wall salon around the corner. She wants like a real big girl haircut. So like, I took that responsibility back because, kind of a girl thing, and I had a good person.

[00:22:21] And so, I took that back. But then we shift things around, right? So, so, things change that, that. Uh, here’s the shuffling of the cards. For sure. Yeah, that’s a really good point.

[00:22:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s And I’m It’s because

[00:22:38] Stephanie Straub: For a season, it might, it might be a permanent change or it might just be for a season.

[00:22:42] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Well, and ultimately that will get to be a very light load, right?

[00:22:46] Because she can then, at some point, she gonna take that card, right? She’ll make her appointment. She knows the hair girl. She’ll text her. She’ll make the appointment. She might even drive herself there. Right? So ultimately we’re trying to give all the cards back to the kids except for like make our own beds.

[00:23:02] Stephanie Straub: Right? Right. For sure. For sure, but yeah, but, but I think having regular communication about, so if those Sunday sit downs, we talk about the meals and who, and like what we’re going to plan and this and that, and who’s cooking and all that kind of stuff, and we’re doing that together, then I think part of that Sunday sit down can be an emotional or relational check in.

[00:23:25] So, what works this past week, what didn’t work this past week, and if it didn’t work, you can’t just be like, this didn’t work, right? You gotta come in with some sort of solution connected to that, right? This didn’t really work for me, and again, it’s relational or emotional, right? But it’s great to have a space that you’re regularly gonna sit down and check in with each other on that level as well.

[00:23:47] When it is calm, because the worst is when Joey, you know, it’s Friday night, the party’s tomorrow, he hasn’t gotten the gift, you don’t know how he’s getting there, all those different kinds of things, right?

[00:23:58] Yes, when it’s calm, and it’s sometimes removed from the incident, because I know for, for in my relationship, there are things and I’m like, ah, it bothers me.

[00:24:08] And so I might just kind of make a note of it. And, um, and I’m not kidding. I literally, that’s the notes section in my cell phone, right? I’ve just like, I just might be something that I want to talk about. And by the time you’re like, so that thing anymore, but in the moment, it was a thing, right? Leslie, that helps too, if we can prove ourself from it a little, and it might not even be worth talking about, or if you’re 60s later and you’re still like, no, yeah, I’m gonna talk about it.

[00:24:38] Right? Yeah.

[00:24:40] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: That’s a great idea though, to just be able to like chart it on a, however you’re going to write it down and then you can reflect on it and be like, was that me micromanaging? Because that’s definitely a problem in my relationship. I want things done a specific way and I’ve ultimately had to decide that if I really want it done that way, then I’m going to need to be the one that does it.

[00:24:58] Right. Yeah. We all learned that. We all learned that. I think with time.

[00:25:04] Stephanie Straub: And it’s harder about it. So I don’t. So when it comes to the holidays in my marriage, I wanted to do it. I wanted to do it because it was important that it be done a certain way. And I had a problem with the fact that, that my ex husband didn’t really contribute at the same level.

[00:25:22] It took years to go. But I could come back and be like, well, if you, right, right. So I couldn’t come back and say that. So that was my jurisdiction was happy to take that on as my jurisdiction. And there were other things that, that my partner did, but that’s okay too. Like you can hear things that are like, this is, I want this.

[00:25:42] But then we can’t complain that you’re the only one doing it.

[00:25:45] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. That happened early in our marriage with laundry. My husband wants laundry folded a specific way and I was like, God bless, enjoy the laundry. Because that was also a test that I was fine that he put off for a while. He could do it on the weekends.

[00:25:57] He was a teacher. So I didn’t care if laundry piled up. I wanted it clean so we could grab something out of the basket. But if he wanted to let it pile up and then, and then do a bunch of the loads on a specific day, that was fine. So I ran the laundry and he folded it and, and that worked out just fine because he was picky.

[00:26:12] We all have our picky things. I think a lot of times people think, Oh, it’s only the woman who has the picky things, but that is not the case at all. I don’t think

[00:26:19] Stephanie Straub: no, no, that, Oh no. I think we all have our, our stuff for sure. I think we all have our stuff for sure, but I, I like having. That time, like, that we prioritize to sit down and to talk about those things.

[00:26:33] Because if you’re somebody who maybe gets a little anxious, like, this bothers me and I need to share, I’m having a thought or an emotion, which means I obviously need to share it immediately in the moment, right? It doesn’t always work, right? Because we might be, like you said, might be emotional or reactive.

[00:26:49] So it’s that time later that we know we can address it should we feel like we need to. And that may bring some of that anxiety down in the moment, knowing, I do, I will have a space to address this later if I need to. For people, if they’re not maybe naturally inclined to bring stuff up on their own, provides them a platform to do that, where they don’t necessarily have to be the initiator of a potentially uncomfortable…

[00:27:16] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. So they sit down for the win. And especially, I think we have to then verbalize all those things that were in our brain, right? It’s not just the dental appointment, it’s scheduling the dentist appointment, having a trigger in our mind so the dental appointment needs to happen, and talking about those things if we’re not going to get the fair play cards.

[00:27:32] I don’t know how deep the fair play cards go, like, do they say schedule the dental appointment, take the dental appointment, or is it just like dental appointment?

[00:27:40] Stephanie Straub: I’m not entirely sure, like, I think it’s like dental appointments and then together you guys decide, like, what all of that entails.

[00:27:50] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: You know, but I think we have to be better about talking about all the mental things that come with whatever our task is.

[00:27:56] So I am the financial good person in our house. Like I do the taxes and I get everything in and sometimes my husband will just like, send me an email with attachment, whatever the file is, right? His W nine or whatever they’re called and I’m like, can you just put it in the drive? You know, and it would have taken him just as long to put it in the drive as it would to email me.

[00:28:17] But if he emails them to me, then I have to download, then upload, put it in the drive. Right. And so when we use our words to just say, Hey, this is the drive. When you get things, can you put it in there? That would be great. Right. Instead of just sucking it up and being angry about it.

[00:28:34] Stephanie Straub: Yep, exactly. Like how our roles change, whether it’s like a baby being born or, or a child going off to college is like another big like, this is where it’s now like, okay, I have time that I didn’t have before or a child driving or, or an illness or an ailing parent or something like that.

[00:28:54] The thing that goes unrecognized is, there’s a little bit of loss that goes, a lot of loss that is connected to these shifts and changes. And with any sort of loss. There can be the potential for feelings of so obviously lives change and shift and individuals change and shift and I think it’s okay to say, and look back both as an individual or with her of like, remember when we were kids, right, we were just dating and and we could just.

[00:29:31] Sleep in or eat cereal for dinner, or it was a lot easier to kind of be fun loving or impulsive. And some of those things have to change and there’s. Sometimes your sadness is connected to that. And sometimes your sadness is connected to watching our, our roles change and our partner’s roles change.

[00:29:55] That’s okay.

[00:29:55] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And I think that Sunday sit down is a great time to be like, doesn’t it kind of make you sad that we’re not chauffeuring her around anymore? Because I’m sure I might feel that I’m not going to feel it right now, right in the middle of it. But I’m sure. When I’m no longer in the car with her constantly hearing about all the boy problems at school, I’ll probably be a little bit sad that I don’t have that time anymore.

[00:30:15] I’ll also probably be a little bit happy and that’s okay too.

[00:30:18] Stephanie Straub: Right, right. I probably have some of the best conversations with my 14 year old in the car on the way to gymnastics. Yeah. Um, because yeah, there’s something about it that that’s just where we open up. And, um, right. And so we can have two feelings at the same time, same thing.

[00:30:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and this is especially true with a new baby. I think I was like, I don’t even know who I am. There was a person that I was just a few weeks ago, and that person is completely lost. And I don’t, I don’t, I’m never gonna find her again. I don’t know where she is. Right, because I just want to cry all the time and every thought in my whole life is about this baby and I have no idea what I’m doing and I used to be really competent at what I was doing.

[00:30:57] Stephanie Straub: Yeah. And again, I’m going to speak a little bit to kind of a cisgendered heterosexual partnership, but I do want to hold space for males who are conditioned that their job is to be the provider. And how that feels a lot heavier, and there’s a baby involved, and that’s scary, I think, for a lot of partners that have just started expanding their family, to feel like, okay.

[00:31:26] Now, it just all got real and now I have to provide as well. And right, wrong, or indifferent, that’s a stressful position to be in. So I want to hold space for that, that role changing of, you know.

[00:31:41] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah. And I see dads who have been really, you know, in the trenches with the mom the whole time. And when people are in labor, you see that dad just feels so helpless.

[00:31:50] Especially if things are going wrong. They don’t know if there’s anything they can do. They wish they could do something. They wish they had some, they, they, they have no control, right? There’s nothing. They just have to sort of sit there and watch and support, which they may or may not be good at anyway.

[00:32:04] Stephanie Straub: And so this sucks. So I think this is a three hour podcast, right? This happens in partnerships, any kind of relationships, but awful feeling. And I think childbirth, it’s probably. Maybe one of the worst spaces, but that that partners feel it of absolute helplessness. A lot of times people want to be problem solvers for the people that they love, right?

[00:32:29] Problem I want to solve it and they may come in with like suggestions or how can I fix it or whatever and that feels Invalidating to the person sharing the problem, right? But sometimes there is no there is no Solution to the problem like right other than delivering the baby, right that further can’t do anything, right?

[00:32:48] Well, you know, they can’t really do anything until that baby’s born like that’s that’s on mom You know, that’s on the birthing person. And so I think that that can be a real struggle when it comes to like, now, once that baby’s here, breastfeeding, what can the partner do where the skill will kind of empathy and validation is so, so there’s just getting in the hole with somebody, right?

[00:33:12] So a lot happens is, you know, some body that we care about is struggling. We, we kind of envision that they’re at the bottom of like this dark hole. And it’s like cold and damp and muddy and stinky and it’s just like right and it’s just blegh. Nobody wants to be in a hole. What we ought to do is we stand at the top of that hole down.

[00:33:34] We say valuable than that, right? Tell you in that, but it’s called power. Well, as you go in the hole with the person and you just sit with them and bear witness to how icky that hole really is. And. I’m really sorry, this is awful. This sucks, and I’m so sorry you’re going through it. So incredibly helpful. And it’s so, so simple yet, yet a lot of times our distress around watching the people that we love struggle prevents us from being able to just get in it with them and sit in it with them and just say, yeah, this is awful and you’re so sorry it’s happened to you.

[00:34:17] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: At what point do you decide you show them there’s a ladder in the hole or you think there’s a ladder, but the ladder may break, right? Or you can, you can easily jump out of the hole, right? Cause you have all this upper body strength because you work out or, you know. Right. They always struggle with the whole, let’s sit in the hole together.

[00:34:35] Like that’s usually what I start with is let’s sit in the hole together. But then if they seem so frustrated, I’m like, but there’s a ladder right here. Or you know, if you just learned to jump harder, you could get out of this hole or whatever.

[00:34:45] Stephanie Straub: Right. Well, I think, and this is as a kind of part of my role too, because like, right, I’ve got ladders, right.

[00:34:52] To help them, like, here are my degrees, right? Let me show you how to do it. Right. It has to be with their consent. So sometimes depending on the situation we’re sitting there and we, and just sitting there and hold them space and bearing witness empowers them enough to like, figure out how to climb their way out on their own, right?

[00:35:11] Suggestions wrong with offering that, but I think. It has to be with their thoughts about this. Are you interested? Right? Right. I mean, that would say, right? So I’m so sorry. It’s terrible. I wish I could help you. Right. Cause sometimes there’s nothing we can do to help. Right. Uh, I wish I could help you and you know, or I wish I had the perfect words for this or whatever.

[00:35:34] Like, so we could share that and sit in it with them and it was something that to feel like a potential solution to we, we feel like we’ve got a potential ladder to help now. Then we can all accept that. But again, they don’t have, they don’t have to consent to it. And that’s not personal. It feels personal.

[00:35:53] Like, why don’t you want my ladder? Why aren’t you interested in that? Right? It’s not personal. They’re insured. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so it, you can offer the ladder, but I would start with the validation and the getting in the hole. Then you can say, hey, if you’re interested in that, and then if they’re interested, then you can offer it.

[00:36:12] So

[00:36:12] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: that’s a great analogy of like getting in the hole with people and I think we have to do that with our partner because I think we’re real, real quick to be like, we’ve got a ladder to get out, you know, this situation that you are in with our kids, right? Well, I’m going to start with this,

[00:36:28] Stephanie Straub: like what I do, right?

[00:36:30] So these don’t just stay at the office, right? So I think, of course, I’ve got a ladder for everyone, my kids, my partner, my sister, my friend, the male, you know, I’ve got a ladder. Right. And so I really have, I really, really have to, and I’m sure you experiences maybe it with lots of things, but like, especially in the medical space of like, Oh, I know what to do about that.

[00:36:52] Right. Because that’s your, your expertise. And so, sometimes I really have to check my shuffle a bit around, like, to answer any of that.

[00:37:00] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, and I have to, as a nurse especially, I have to realize that my ladder just may not align with what they’re wanting, right? My ladder might be, why don’t you just get induced, when they are so adamant that they don’t want to be induced, right?

[00:37:10] So, my ladder is of no use to them, even though I figure that’s the ladder that could get them out of this hole.

[00:37:15] Stephanie Straub: Right, right.

[00:37:17] Yeah.

[00:37:18] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Well, I love the idea of the Sunday sit down. I think that’s something that I’m going to implement for this. And I think no matter what your family looks like, that is something you could implement because especially as my kids get older, they’re taking some of the fair play cards of their own.

[00:37:33] I may need a comms place where I can be like, Hey, I noticed that you missed a couple of assignments this week. You know, is there, is there ways that I can support you better in that or, you know, with the husband where we miss a birthday party and some kids just totally, you know, taken back by that, you know, we can talk about how things got missed and it wasn’t going to take over.

[00:37:53] Right. Instead of in the moment being like, I told you,

[00:37:56] Stephanie Straub: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it’s a useful tool, and for whatever reason, I suggested it, and I think people are a little resistant to it. But then the folks that do follow through on it come back, and I’ve never had somebody say, It wasn’t helpful. It wasn’t helpful.

[00:38:11] But it does, it does require intention. It does require intention, so.

[00:38:15] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: I gotta say, we did therapy after 2020, and I was shocked by how much of therapy is really just having a discussion. Together, because my husband doesn’t want to take less of the load than I do. That’s not the person that I married. He’s not looking to take the easy way out.

[00:38:29] He’s not looking to ignore my mental load. He simply just doesn’t see it like that’s not part of his, like who he is, right? And so the more I discuss it, the more he realizes, okay, this is something I can do. I realized that it’s just not something he saw, right? And there’s things I don’t see like home improvement.

[00:38:48] I’m like, that wall can stay chipped forever. I do not care. But to him, he’s like, well, we’re going to paint that, right?

[00:38:54] Stephanie Straub: Yes. Yeah. And I think, and I just saw something recently where a mother was talking about how she is teaching her children. The skill of notice and do notice and do, and I thought that was so great.

[00:39:10] Like, so rather than like a chore chart where there’s value in that for sure. But it was more of a, if you notice X, then do Y around that. So if you know that you took the last paper towel off the roll, the household expectation would be that you go, you get a. So I think that that’s a really great skill so that like the next generations were teaching that.

[00:39:40] Male and female and everything between that we’re teaching that. That’s what contributes to the the household as opposed to one person is the delegator of all the tasks and the seer of all the things. Yeah.

[00:39:54] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Well, and that’s awesome with kids, right? Because they might not realize that they have to get a birthday present.

[00:39:59] Right? So when the kid gets the invitation, then you sit down and you’re like, okay, we have a party on Friday. Can you go. Right? We have to look at the family calendar. Then we have, you know, going through the mental load steps instead of mom always being the one that’s like, I’m just going to grab the present while I’m at Target.

[00:40:14] We’re not even going to deal with it. But teaching kids those steps so that they realize how they can take on those things on their own. And then hopefully someday with these boys that I have, they are taking more of the mental load. And, you know, my husband is 6, 000 times better than his dad at all of these parenting tasks.

[00:40:31] My hope, and I think his hope also is that our boys are 6, 000 times better than he is so that we’re ultimately. Just making life a lot easier for everybody.

[00:40:39] Stephanie Straub: Absolutely. And again, I go back to, this is kind of how for generations, males and females have been kind of social, and moms and dads and all, right?

[00:40:49] And wives, husbands and wives, that’s how kind of we socialize. And so, it’s taking, it’s gonna take time to continue to undo that, and to kind of learn new ways, in the midst of a million other things changing in the world, right? And so, yes, while each generation gets better. Right? We can continue to build up for sure and influence the next generation.

[00:41:15] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And we’re all going to have missteps along the way, both of us, and we have to be, we have to allow that because we’re all just here learning. We’re all just people.

[00:41:23] Stephanie Straub: Yes, this is true. So I hope this is a takeaway, I hope there are little tidbits that folks use and you find valuable.

[00:41:32] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yeah, I think there will be.

[00:41:33] And I got to tell people that I think this is something that absolutely every couple struggles with. Because we’re different people and shockingly, we can’t read each other’s minds, which is really annoying in a couple.

[00:41:44] Stephanie Straub: I mean, that’s probably a double edged sword. Sometimes I don’t want to know what’s going on, but, but I will say, and, and I may have shared this with you previously, but when I’m working with a newly postpartum mom who’s dealing with distress or depression, anxiety, or whatever the case may be, I know that they’re, that is starting to resolve when they start to come in and complain about it, right?

[00:42:07] That is normal, right? That is, I don’t know who I am. I don’t know who they are. I don’t know. There’s a couple, I don’t like, yes, that is what pretty much I would say every couple of months. After having a baby and bringing it to the home. So I always feel encouraged. I know they’re in a new brand of distress, but I’ve always encouraged, oh, that the original brand of distress that brought you in here, the depression and the anxiety is getting to be a little bit more resolved.

[00:42:34] It’s no longer our acute, acute, most pressing issue. If we’re coming in and just being like, gosh, I feel like I need to protect this. And he does. If it’s like, okay, yeah, okay. Get on with stuff. So yes,

[00:42:46] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: It’s very, very normal. If you’re out there thinking Hilary of 27 years has got this solved, I absolutely do not.

[00:42:53] And we, we still travel this bumpy road frequently in my house.

[00:42:57] Stephanie Straub: Yeah, for sure.

[00:42:57] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Stephanie, I think people need to follow you on TikTok. It’s mamatherapy, right?

[00:43:02] Stephanie Straub: Mamatherapy on TikTok. Yep.

[00:43:03] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Yes. She gives such good little nuggets because I’m not in therapy currently, but I loved… I just saw one about grief and how grief, your life gets bigger and that makes grief a little bit smaller, but it’s still going to hit your pain button.

[00:43:15] And I was like, that is so perfect. So I think it’s so nice to get little nuggets of therapy. Well, I’m on TikTok from you, so I hope the people will follow you. Are you on Instagram, too? I mean, we all are, because who knows, by the time this airs, maybe TikTok will be a thing of the past.

[00:43:30] Stephanie Straub: Who knows? Who knows?

[00:43:31] I am on Instagram, and it’s just my name, Stephanie Straub, L C S W.

[00:43:35] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: And we’ll link that in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for all the work that you do with moms and couples out there. I think it is a great work, and I’m so glad there are people out there like you.

[00:43:45] Stephanie Straub: Thank you, Hilary.

[00:43:46] This was a real delight. I appreciate it.

[00:43:48] Hilary Erickson | The Pregnancy Nurse®: Okay. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I just thought it was, I love that Sunday sit down because doing things when things are calm, which Sunday nights tend to be a little bit more calm at my house. Really makes such a different and when you’re like carving out time and it just happens every week, then it gives you that chance to say, Hey, this didn’t work out for me when things are calm.

[00:44:07] I think that’s such a good idea. I want to know what you guys took from the episode. Come find me over on Instagram where we can keep the discussion going. Tell me how you adjust to changes in marital roles. And if you have as many issues with it as I do, even though I’ve been married for what seems like a very long time, also a short time though, too.

[00:44:23] Thanks for being here with us.

[00:44:25] Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls Podcast today. If you liked today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

Keywords:

Marital roles, changes in relationship, mental load, postpartum, parenting, collaboration, Sunday sit down, task delegation, communication, partnership, life event changes, relationship dynamics, support system, emotional support, role adjustment, family routines, gender roles, household responsibilities, emotional check-in, mental health, parenting challenges, time management, calendar coordination, division of labor, problem-solving, relationship strategies, therapy, life balance, relationship growth, division of tasks.

The post Lessons in Partnership: Adapting to Changes in Marital Duties With Stephanie Straub of CNY Therapy Solutions appeared first on Pulling Curls.

Find it here on Apple or Spotify Podcasts

Timestamps:

00:00 Business Shift and Sponsorship Updates

03:50 Podcast Reflections and Guest Challenges

06:21 “See You in 2025”

Keypoints:

• Hilary Erickson updates listeners on her health, stating she’s fully recovered after an appendix issue.
• She shares insights into her business, including past sponsorships with Labry and March of Dimes.
• Google algorithm changes have negatively impacted content creators, affecting her website traffic.
• Hilary expresses dissatisfaction with recent online classes, highlighting poor customer support and value.
• There’s a plan to shift the podcast focus, reducing frequency but increasing episode depth with expert guests.
• Future episodes will explore topics like marital roles and informed consent, with contributions from experts.
• The podcast is going on a temporary hiatus and will return in 2025 with a new format.
• Hilary emphasizes the importance of subscribing to her newsletter for updates on future episodes.
• She encourages listeners to follow her on social media to stay informed about podcast developments.
• Hilary gives a shout out to Arizona’s favorable weather, expressing appreciation for her environment.

Producer: Drew Erickson

Transcript

[00:00:00.000] – Hilary Erickson

Welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today on episode 257, we are talking about what’s happening lately, so let’s untangle it.

[00:00:09.490] – Hilary Erickson

Hi, I’m Hilary, a serial overcomplicator. I’m also a nurse, mom to three, and the curly head behind Pulling Curls and the Pregnancy Nurse. This podcast aims to help us stop overcomplicating things and remember how much easier it is to keep things simple. Let’s smooth out those snarls with Pregnancy and Parenting Untangled, the Pulling Curls Podcast.

[00:00:29.860] – Hilary Erickson

Okay, first off, I’ve had so many of you guys ask me how I’m doing post-appendix, and I got to say I’m doing really well. I’m back to 100 %. I don’t feel any different than I did previous to the appendix. So I got to give a shout out to bodies and how they heal. I cannot believe that I went from septic could barely get up to fine. Within four months, maybe even three, I was back to normal. So I guess medical system does work.

[00:01:01.490] – Hilary Erickson

Okay, I did an episode last year on how I make money, and that was so popular. I thought I’d review what things are doing in my business and how some things are shifting, which is going to include the podcast. So stay tuned.

[00:01:15.190] – Hilary Erickson

First off, I have had some amazing opportunities. I had that podcast sponsored by L’abri, and I love working with them. I’m hoping to work with them again in the future. I’ve had a couple of sponsorships with the March of Dimes, which is just a dream come true to work with such a big company that has such a big reach.

[00:01:32.240] – Hilary Erickson

Really loving that, hoping to work with them again in the future. And sponsorships, of course, help the bottom line of the business. And so I’m really grateful for them. I’m always looking for new sponsorships, and I’m hoping to get the podcast sponsored more in the future. That being said, Google has just slaughtered content creators, people who write websites, even high-quality websites.

[00:01:52.980] – Hilary Erickson

And I’m looking at this through every niche. That includes food bloggers, great food bloggers who test their recipes. And I got to tell you, there’s a lot of food blogger recipes out there that they don’t test. They ask AI to make them a soup recipe, and then they just throw it up online. And then you eat it and you want to just throw up. So great food bloggers.

[00:02:13.040] – Hilary Erickson

They’re getting deranked on Google. Travel bloggers. This is AI writing travel blog information. They’re just being demonetized. Reddit’s coming up first. So it’s been really tough. I have had my traffic from Google just decimated, and that is hard to see. I’m trying to bring it back by working more on Pinterest. I took a Pinterest class, and I got to say, huge disappointment. He was like, If you don’t see a big increase, I’ll help you. And I’ve emailed him, and guess what? He hasn’t helped me. So I don’t know why I take these classes expecting anything.

[00:02:44.110] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, I got to say that I take my classes so much more seriously than these business classes take their courses. If a couple comes to me and they’re like, I’m having a hard time accessing it, or do you have any more information on this? I would be on it and helping them in whatever way that I could. And these people, I’m paying five times as much for this class, and they’re just like, sorry.

[00:03:06.450] – Hilary Erickson

Anyway, I’m just saying, just a big pet peeve soapbox of mine in the industry that I’m in. I have a goal to not take a single class this year because I can’t think of a single class I’ve taken that really has helped me. That’s all.

[00:03:17.510] – Hilary Erickson

Okay, which brings me here to this podcast. We are on episode 257 today. That is a lot of episodes, and I’m not here to repeat the episodes. I figure you guys can scroll back. A lot of people are like, oh, you should just bring back old episodes. And I could do that. But a lot of times people find my podcast because it’s linked in blog posts that are about that.

[00:03:36.650] – Hilary Erickson

I’ve already talked about a hospital bag. It’s linked in my hospital bag post. I talk about the hospital bag all the time, and I link to that hospital bag post in there. And my hospital packing list has not changed. So I’m like, oh, I really don’t want to rerecord that episode. I might end up recording a new episode on stuff like that, but right now I’m just like, that’s too much.

[00:03:55.380] – Hilary Erickson

And I’ve got to admit, because our podcast, it just hasn’t taken off like I hoped it would when I started it. We started probably before everybody started jumping on the podcast bandwagon. Late 2019, I think, is when we started it. And I’ve enjoyed it, but I got to admit, we’ve had people on this podcast that I did not enjoy having as guests.

[00:04:16.030] – Hilary Erickson

I get a lot of requests to have guests on the podcast that are basically just ads for companies or people, and I’m just not interested in that. I will say that I did the recording with Dani a couple of episodes before about Baby Child Safety, and I just enjoyed recording it with her. I was talking with a good friend who had a lot of insight on a specific topic.

[00:04:34.910] – Hilary Erickson

And so as I was thinking about that, that’s how I’ve decided to change the podcast. It’s going to come out maybe monthly. It’ll just be a fun surprise in your podcast player, or you’ll see me on social media and you’ll know one’s available and waiting for you. But my plan now is to come out with longer episodes with friends who are experts on a specific topic that I think will be really helpful for you guys. So I’m hoping to have Danny come back on and talk about how she got pregnant with her first baby.

[00:05:02.110] – Hilary Erickson

But I know I have a couple already in the works. We’re going to be talking about marital roles with one of my favorite social workers, and we’re going to be talking about informed consent with one of my favorite midwives.

[00:05:14.440] – Hilary Erickson

So I’m really excited for these episodes, and I hope you guys will really enjoy them. But we are going on hiatus for a little bit of time. We’re not really sure when we’re coming back. We have some episodes scheduled to be recorded, but I can’t keep making this podcast a weekly chore when it’s just not giving us the return in investment that we hoped.

[00:05:32.130] – Hilary Erickson

I’m hoping that we end up getting some podcast sponsors, and then maybe we increase how frequently we’re posting. I just don’t know.

[00:05:39.720] – Hilary Erickson

So we will see you sometime in 2025 with some longer episodes. Make sure that you’re following Pulling Curls on social media so you can see when we come up or follow me on the pregnancy nurse. Pregnancy will be on there. Regular Home Life will be on Pulling Curls.

[00:05:52.800] – Hilary Erickson

Thank you for listening. Thank you for hanging out with me. I’m excited for what’s going on in 2025. Please join my newsletter because those people will also always get a shout out when the podcast is relevant to them. You can always pick in the Pulling Curls newsletter what’s relevant to you. So if you’re not interested in pregnancy, like I wouldn’t be if I wasn’t the pregnancy nurse, you don’t need to get that pregnancy information, but I can send you other information that you will find helpful.

[00:06:17.040] – Hilary Erickson

Also, can I give a shout out to Arizona? Our weather has been so good lately. I’m just trying to relish in it. So I’ll see you sometime in 2025. Thanks for joining us on the Pulling Curls Podcast today. If you like today’s episode, please consider reviewing, sharing, subscribing. It really helps our podcast grow. Thank you.

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