Today we have a BONUS episode with my friend Katelyn. We’re talking about her doctor recommended a cesarean section and she refused it, and how all of that went.
Today’s guest is Katelyn Fagan. She is from What’s Up Fagans. This is her third time on the Pulling Curls Podcast. You can listen to her in her post on the last part of pregnancy and helping kids to clean.
This episode was inspired by my post on informed consent. Learning to advocate for yourself can be difficult for pregnant moms. Using informed consent can help you do it with something your provider should be doing anyway.
Big thanks to our sponsor The Online Prenatal Class for Couples. By understanding what normal plans are and some ways to best advocate for yourself in ADVANCE you’ll absolutely love how this class prepares you! Be sure to check out the reviews!
In this episode
Check out any upcoming live classes here.
Katelyn’s history and how she tried a few practices to help support her in the delivery she wanted.
Benefits of a small/large practice.
Handling prenatal care and your emotions as you move towards the end of your pregnancy.
Using a peanut ball to increase movement in labor (I like that 15″ size)
Using your nurse to help you advocate
My podcast episode on saying no in labor
Katelyn’s book on VBAC isn’t quite out yet.
Other things that might interest you
Producer: Drew Erickson
Check out my other pregnancy podcasts:
Check out all my podcasts:
[00:00:00.520] – Hilary Erickson
Guys, it’s bonus episode time. Guys, we just heard Katelyn’s story on Monday, and I just felt like we needed to revisit it, like, did those babies come out? Did you ever have them? Let’s untangle it.
[00:00:28.580] – Hilary Erickson
Welcome to the Pulling Curls Podcast, I’m Hilary, your curly headed host on the podcast, where we untangle everything from pregnancy, parenting and home routines. I want you to know that there are no right answers for every family. And I find that simplifying my priorities is almost always the answer. It’s tangled. Just like my hair.
[00:00:53.710] – Hilary Erickson
OK, before I let Katelyn on, I want you to know that she didn’t want a C-section and our doctor wanted her to have a C-section. So that’s kind of what we’re exploring today. And if you’re listening to this podcast on this exact day, November 19th, then you can sign up for my class on making decisions in labor and delivery. It’s at 1:00 p.m. Mountain Time on November the 19th, and I’d love to see you guys inside of it.
[00:01:14.560] – Hilary Erickson
If not, the replay will be in the deluxe version of my online prenatal class, where you can listen to that as well. It’ll be in there later this week. So… You can come to the live. Even if you just sign up, you can see the replay, but you have to sign up in order to get in. So without further ado, let me introduce my friend Katelyn. It’s our third time on the podcast, guys. She’s super popular.
[00:01:34.330] – Hilary Erickson
This episode of the Pulling Curls Podcast is sponsored by the online prenatal class for couples. It simplifies understanding labor so you can have a more relaxed pregnancy and birth; taught by a highly experienced labor and delivery nurse, and can be done wherever you are, whenever you want! No more arranging busy schedules to fit in a prenatal class. Save 15% with the coupon code UNTANGLED. You can find out more at Pulling Curls Podcast and the menu under courses or in this episode’s show notes.
[00:02:01.840] – Hilary Erickson
Hey, Katelyn, welcome to the Pulling Curls Podcast.
[00:02:04.810] – Katelyn Fagan
Hey, Hilary! Great to be here.
[00:02:06.670] – Hilary Erickson
You are like my guest who’s been on the most times! Yeah, this is number three for Katelyn, guys!
[00:02:11.590] – Katelyn Fagan
That’s because I’m just so awesome, so… Or Hilary’s awesome for having me, either one.
[00:02:16.780] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. Well, I think you have a lot to share, especially I like talking to a strong pregnant woman because I think it helps other people realize kind of what they could do when they just don’t have the words or the ideas, right?
[00:02:27.280] – Katelyn Fagan
For sure. And I like talking to people to let them know that I’m kind of the oddball outlier. And so if I can do it, maybe they can do it with not so… such outlying circumstances. Uh…
[00:02:38.320] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. So just to catch everybody up, Katelyn was on this week’s previous episode, number 66, talking about how miserable being pregnant was and she is done being pregnant.
[00:02:48.730] – Katelyn Fagan
[00:02:48.730] – Hilary Erickson
No babies in there anymore. She has had her babies they’re six weeks? How old are they?
[00:02:53.290] – Katelyn Fagan
They are now two months.
[00:02:55.180] – Hilary Erickson
Oh, two months straight up to months. We’re not even talking weeks anymore. You have too many kids.
[00:02:59.590] – Katelyn Fagan
Eight weeks, whatever. Yeah, well I guess nine weeks now. Sorry, nine weeks.
[00:03:04.180] – Hilary Erickson
So she had a C-section with her first set of twins. She had three vaginal deliveries, second set of twins. Side note, all natural. She said. I don’t know, maybe she IVF in her spare time, but… And then they wanted her to probably have a C-section for the second round and she advocated herself. And that’s what we’re going to talk about this day today. So you know that the backing could be an issue, right?
[00:03:29.440] – Katelyn Fagan
Yes. Because any time we would be back, even after you’ve had one, two, three, like you’re still always considered high risk or at least with most practices I’ve been to, once a VBAC you’ll always be a high risk category. So, yeah, I knew within twins I might have some issues. And I thought, well, maybe I’d have to have a C-section just depending on the presentation of the twins, which is the reason I had the first C-section in the first place.
[00:03:54.160] – Hilary Erickson
Right. You had the C-section because one was breech.
[00:03:56.590] – Katelyn Fagan
They were both breech at the end. So, yeah, all that really matters into Enzo is the first one, so. Right. And she was sitting on the exit, so it wasn’t happening.
[00:04:04.840] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. So we had talked about this a little bit before. I there are some doctors who just don’t VBAC. I will say I don’t know if they’ve they’re just too nervous to do it. And that’s their choice. Right. But you went to a pretty large practice. Well, you went to two practices, right? You started with one. Yes. It is not a good fit. Not a great fit. I don’t know, like I had ever seen, like the real doctors I had kept seeing, like this midwife.
[00:04:28.840] – Katelyn Fagan
And she was an older midwife there. And then at the last point when I had there, she was kind of like, whoa, wait, you are VBAC with twins. I don’t know that they were going to want to do that. They probably don’t want to do it. So she kept saying these things about the doctors and maybe one, they want to do it or not. And I was like, what? Or really care for you and some other things.
[00:04:47.960] – Hilary Erickson
So like, let’s look around. And so I switch to the other practice here in town, which is still another large practice, which I have enjoyed large practices since my first twins pregnancy because I hate them so much. And being through it again this time I’m like, oh yeah, I really yeah, there’s a good reason why. But I understand like in my area, like that’s all there is, like by and large, like that’s all there is unless I want to deliver at home, but I don’t with back there’s still that small chance and with twins actually complicated.
[00:05:18.490] – Hilary Erickson
I wasn’t looking to have a home because I don’t know that we could be friends. Exactly. That would make me I’d be a basket case. So but I know you approached it on all your visits, like initial visit. You brought it up, right? Of course.
[00:05:31.570] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah. I mean, that’s my biggest concern. I made my pregnancy. Pregnancy. I know how this goes. Right. So I don’t usually have a lot of questions about, well, I’m having this symptom or something. I just I want to know my end game, you know?
[00:05:44.230] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. And I think that’s really weird because a lot of people don’t want to confront the problem. And I think it’s really important to just bring it up at the first visit. So, you know, what the doctors are thinking and they know what you’re thinking. So later down the line, that could be like you never mentioned this the whole time. Right. So but of course, it’s hard, though, because I’ve been practice like every doctor I saw, every doctor you see always gives you slightly different answers, a little more cautious or something more like now, totally fine.
[00:06:09.850] – Katelyn Fagan
And other ones are like, no, you should definitely have a C-section. So, like, it’s just one of those things. That’s why I don’t like I don’t recommend good practice. If you don’t have to see one, go to one. Or if you if they allow you just to have one doctor the whole time. But a lot of them are like, oh, we recommend you see everybody because you have the chance of having any of them on the day of delivery, which is true sometimes with other practices I’ve been to.
[00:06:32.270] – Hilary Erickson
But whatever I still like the consistency, at least the same doctor for your care. I will say that model is sleeping. I don’t think we’re going to see that as much as we have in the past. When I started, a lot of doctors were that way. But I just I mean, think of your husband was an OB and every night they’re on call. People just can’t live like that, like they used to be able to. Apparently so.
[00:06:52.900] – Katelyn Fagan
Right. But but even if like because I went to for my first VBAC with my son, like, I saw a midwife the whole time and there was. Of the me as well, I met with her once or twice before I delivered, but I knew that I probably wouldn’t have her for delivery because it was like three midwives that rotate at the hospital or something. And I didn’t end up having her for the delivery. But that was fine because know kind catch them.
[00:07:17.630] – Hilary Erickson
So, I mean, it’s not true necessarily, but like, I felt pretty confident knowing that it was a team of midwives are going to do because midwives are less efficient sometimes. Yeah. Although I think you’d still have to have an OB in house watching your care as a VBAC, especially with twins like the midwife could be doing the hands on, but I’m pretty sure they’d have to be an OB that could initiate an emergency C-section at any time. So. Right. And they had OBIS there, right? Yeah. For that. And I saw that. So on during my. OK, so there was an OB hospitalist. That makes sense.
[00:07:50.590] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. OK, so not all the doctors agreed, which is going to be pretty normal. And I even asked on my end, I asked some of the doctors I worked with and they were like, that is really going to be up to her physician. They were all over the place. So it seems like a really. Yeah, it seems like it’s just kind of like up to the physician’s desire. Yeah. And that which is interesting, none of them said, oh, it’s up to the patient. They all said it was up to the doctor. And I was kind of like, well it’s kind of the patient I think it should be.
[00:08:19.190] – Katelyn Fagan
And I’m the one that’s going to be giving birth and it’s my body and my baby. So I should be able to decide how I want to try. I think unless there’s something like unless emergency actually happens. But in my case, there was no emergency that was happening. Right.
[00:08:33.920] – Hilary Erickson
And like I went and that’s the beauty of being at the hospital. Right. Because I you I mean, there are worse things in your uterus rupturing. I don’t want to think about them. And I don’t want to think about your uterus rupturing. But we are trained that if your uterus ruptures, we get you back. And babies, our babies are babies. Yeah.
[00:08:49.310] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah, exactly. And that’s why I wanted to live at a hospital just in case the worst happens.
[00:08:54.140] – Hilary Erickson
So how did you research on your end? Because there would be things that the doctor would just be like hard, hard. No. Like if you were breech, a doctor, a physician could say, I will not do a vaginal delivery on you. Right. But this was a grey area.
[00:09:06.620] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah, most of them. So most of the ones I saw were like, well, as long as baby twin A is head down, like, we’re fine. We can do we can flip B or we can extract breech or we can do some things or worse comes to worse. We can C section baby B, which sounds terrible to experienced both types of birth.
[00:09:23.720] – Katelyn Fagan
But anyway the solos were like, yeah, that shouldn’t be a problem as long as baby A’s had down English like always head down and your baby. So I had to head down babies. Everything looked great on my end. I didn’t have any other issues with my pregnancy, no high blood pressure or gestational diabetes or other symptoms or things. Right. So there wasn’t really a reason in my perspective to warrant a C-section, especially like immediately without having gone into labor.
[00:09:55.880] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah, and we did look on a cog. So COG stands for American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, I’m pretty sure, and that is the professional organization of OBs. And they said that there’s no higher risk for 20 back than a single ten back, which is interesting, but especially for a natural twin VBC, because it would be more risk if you were IVF VBAC. I would think just guessing here, but I have no idea. But yeah.
[00:10:21.020] – Katelyn Fagan
And also the ECG also then has has research that suggests that the more vivax you have, the more successful they are like so this would be my fourth VBAC. And then the risk associated are about the same with a regular singleton or twins. So I felt pretty confident in the research out there, like, hey, let’s go for it. But then the one doctor I saw, I mean, I left the appointment crying like he was just a jerk or maybe other not so nice words, but he just kind of came in shooting off like, oh, you want to have a delivery?
[00:10:53.240] – Hilary Erickson
Well, I don’t think it’s very safe. That’s definitely more risks involved with a higher chance of bleeding or just other issues. And with this, the size of you is is so much bigger and more volume with the two babies. So it’s it’s just too much risk because of the risk of the size that my uterus would get, too, is what he was telling me. And I made sure to ask it like, well, are you sure though in my case, because I’ve had three previous VBACs and have had VBACs of also very large babies, including one that was a lot of pounds.
[00:11:24.050] – Katelyn Fagan
So like I wasn’t those people. I have a test pelvis tested uterus. Right. So anyways, he was like, yes, even for you, like you’re the best buddy. So do you believe that they gave you like an informed consent in the office? Did they go over the risks of a C-section, the benefits of a C-section and the alternatives? Although there’s pretty much just two ways out. Yeah, I wish you good luck, baby. Scotty, get the baby out that way.
[00:11:51.770] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah, just magically. So it was weird because I feel like this time they didn’t ever go over that in office. I didn’t sign the. Form until I was at the hospital to deliver, which in all my other VBAC, they had me sign that I don’t know, a month before my due date or so, and they we went over the list and they handed it to me. And I think I could even take it home if I wanted to and read over it the next time.
[00:12:15.640] – Katelyn Fagan
So it was weird that they didn’t do that here in New York. And yeah. So that was that was different. And I’m not sure why I will say consents vary widely, which is surprising. New York is probably a litigious I don’t know, just a guess. But in California, we probably had people sign a consents and here we have people sign three. So it just depends. I’ve never I don’t think I’ve ever had a verbal consent.
[00:12:38.930] – Hilary Erickson
I don’t think we’ve ever. Yeah. So in Texas, I sign a VBAC consent as well as in Indiana. Yeah, I would think they might do it in the office because I mean, I’m saying to me as a nurse, I’ve never had to have a patient sign of consent in the hospital for delivery. So in the hospice, on the buyback consent as well as like blood transfusion consent. And I think one other form. Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:59.540] – Katelyn Fagan
Which is good. But do you feel like they gave you the risks or do they just talk about the research? They ever talk about the benefits of having a vaginal delivery?
[00:13:06.410] – Hilary Erickson
They never really talk about the benefits with me. And I feel like that sometimes. Often they like the doctors I’ve had for my other deliveries to like they are. Well, here’s the risks of back and they go over those really well, but they never go over the risk of C-section very well.
[00:13:19.430] – Katelyn Fagan
Right? Yeah. Or the benefits of having a bachelor’s degree. I mean, what if you wanted ten more kids? Well, right. I mean, one of the main reasons I wanted to have my initial back is because I knew I wanted to have a larger family. Now I have seven. So obviously wish came true or nightmare, depending on who you are and what you think about the exam.
[00:13:39.410] – Katelyn Fagan
But my wish came true. But a lot of times doctors that have more firm limits on like how many C sections they want you to have because there’s additional risks, every C section that you have, which they don’t tell you that as opposed to like the rest of the back, they love towny those. So it’s it’s weird to me that they don’t give equal balance to both sides. Yeah, I often hear this is just the risks. I don’t talk very much about the benefits, but the uninformed, true informed consent should talk about both of them so that we are knowing that they are also balancing animals out when they’re giving us information.
[00:14:12.830] – Katelyn Fagan
Right? Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, I want to know, like I want to know what all the risks and all the benefits are of each one benefits a C section uses like, well, I can schedule a day or I can arrange help, which those are awesome. I would totally like, especially at the end when you’re so ready, be done being pregnant and you are trying to schedule health and meals. And my mother in law came out and I had a couple of days too early because I guessed wrong.
[00:14:37.340] – Katelyn Fagan
So like it is kind of hard not knowing. Right. So having a Schedule C section may make things easier for sure on that point. But other things, it’s more complicated. So, yeah. Like your abdomen for instance. Yeah. Healing and being sore there for a long time and having to take care of. You want twins and all the other kids at the same time.
[00:14:57.590] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. So they made you wait it out. Right. You got to sew. Your cervix was like a four. Right. And then they said they didn’t do shoe so.
[00:15:06.440] – Katelyn Fagan
Guess so it was interesting because no one ever gave me like a firm you can only go to thirty eight weeks, I only go to thirty seven or only go thirty nine. And I kind of prodded and kind of asked and they were like, well we’ll just wait and see which I actually kind of liked because I don’t like when they’re so hard and fast because I mean at the end then when I got to my thirty eight week appointment the doctor did say well if you don’t have a baby in the next week, we’ll schedule an induction for when you want to be at thirty nine point, because there’s not a lot that’s going to be good happening with placenta’s and size and just all of that, which is fine with me at the end.
[00:15:43.400] – Hilary Erickson
I tell you what I was I’m being pregnant, but so that was good though. And so she stripped my membranes. At that point, I think it was like a three going to a four kind of thing. So I’m hoping that it would jumpstart things a little sooner. But I did have some labor over the weekend. So like Saturday evening into the middle of the night, I was having contractions not very regular, not super painful, but having contractions.
[00:16:06.240] – Katelyn Fagan
I went to bed and they stopped using half like most the next day, of course. And then the same thing kind of happened the middle of the night, Sunday night. And contractions happening still not super painful, but regular ish ish. So not very close.
[00:16:19.220] – Hilary Erickson
And so I decided Monday morning I would just go in and have the doctor check me and the membranes again because, hey, let’s get these babies out. My mother in law was right there. So when I went in then that Monday morning, I was, what, thirty eight weeks and five days or something. So she she checked me. I was at a five, which technically is active labor. And so or that’s what she said. I don’t know.
[00:16:39.380] – Katelyn Fagan
I was having zero contractions at the time because they always stop after I went to bed. And so she said, OK, well that’s let’s message to the hospital to have these babies today. I was like, let’s do it then.
[00:16:50.630] – Hilary Erickson
Even though I knew it meant being induced because I wasn’t actively contracting, but I didn’t really want two or three more nights of the night labor that didn’t do much. So so we went to the hospital and. And unfortunately, the doctor I didn’t want was the one on call because you had focused on him your whole pregnancy, you had focused on saw once in the office and I could never see him again. And then, of course, he’s a doctor on call because he was the one that really gave me the hardest time about he want to do a C-section.
[00:17:21.750] – Katelyn Fagan
Everybody else is like, well, see, you should be a good candidate. It should be fine. So I’m more concerned about like, well, we definitely need to have these professional material medicine ultrasounds and not stress tests and things. Well, they all recommend monstrousness, but some were more concerned about the size of the babies. I’m concerned that your other babies were huge.
[00:17:42.290] – Hilary Erickson
What did you have an 11 wait said to over nine pounds and then one that was slightly over 11 pounds. So, so big babies. I just make big babies. So I’m not concerned about it because I have to them out. So whatever, whatever, whatever.
[00:17:56.930] – Katelyn Fagan
I’ve done this before. I’m broke anyways. But I got to the hospital and finally my husband was there at this appointment because he wasn’t there, that these other plans hadn’t met any of the doctors until that morning, I think, or like the week before they finally allowed husbands to come in. So he met maybe one or two. But but hearing the doctor himself say these things about, I really still recommend a C-section. The doctor, of course, didn’t remember meeting me, by the way, was like, I don’t think I’ve met you in the office.
[00:18:24.890] – Hilary Erickson
And I’m like, yeah, but which is funny. I mean, that’s not a normal case. Two sets of twins is not. You’d think they would remember that. So that surprised me. Yeah. He’s like, I don’t think I met you before, have I? I was like, yeah, he did. He’s like, I don’t remember that. Well, anyways, let me talk to you about VBAC with twins. And so he goes on his spiel again.
[00:18:45.020] – Katelyn Fagan
And I was grateful that my husband was there because, like, you know, you’re one sided story is often one sided and you don’t give the doctor. They don’t get to defend themselves. Right. And so maybe I was exaggerating because I didn’t like the doctor saying, but no, I wasn’t. So the doctor was definitely I was more like when I met him in the office, he was like, look, I’m even the twin doctor. I like doing twin deliveries.
[00:19:09.100] – Hilary Erickson
I can do twin B breach or whatever, and I can flip them. And you should ask the other doctors in the practices how many bags of twins they’ve done. I’ve only done three, so ask them like very pompous and definitely wasn’t listening to me that I have him again. Tell me, like, I still recommend a C-section on the day I’m there at the hospital. Five centimeters dilated. I’ve waited so long is not what I want to hear.
[00:19:33.440] – Katelyn Fagan
And so I was like, no, I’m so going to go for VBAC. And he’s like, OK, well, let’s get the consent forms then and we’ll see how you do that kind of attitude. That being said, I’m sure that doctor wanted to chart that he recommends you get a C-section because I can see wanting to cover your bum. But it’s all kind of depends on how you offer it, right. Like, my professional recommendation is that you have a C-section, but I’m up for whatever you’re instead of being like.
[00:19:59.330] – Hilary Erickson
You’re stupid if you pick to have a vaginal delivery. Yeah, it’s all depends on how it’s offered. Yeah, well, I mean, he he wasn’t interested in listening to me, let’s just put it that way. I mean he would often kind of talk over you as just like he didn’t really want to get to know me either or I don’t know anything I wanted. So yeah, it was super frustrating, but I was like, no, we’re going to go ahead.
[00:20:19.670] – Katelyn Fagan
All right. So and he eventually then everything takes forever in the hospital and have to find both babies on the monitor. Of course, with twins, it’s like super hard. They always move and wiggle and change positions and whatever. So but I got Pitocin started before he broke my water. I still wasn’t having any contractions, but not until the doses started a low dose, but up to then every thirty minutes. And sometimes he was coming in to the pitocin and the nurse was like, I got it, I got it.
[00:20:50.630] – Hilary Erickson
I have never seen a doctor up until someone there they called me up. It’s the call they’ve come in to look at it, but I don’t let doctors touch my pumps. Now, he was looking at doing it a couple of times and charging in there.
[00:21:01.940] – Katelyn Fagan
And the nurse was like, I just did it back off. I mean, not quite that like that, but like, no, I got it. Don’t don’t touch. I just did it.
[00:21:10.610] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. So yeah. So which. Yeah.
[00:21:13.160] – Katelyn Fagan
You said that was so weird. It’s like yeah it is kind of weird. I don’t know but yes. So he opted for every thirty minutes and then after a few hours he then broke my water and he didn’t put the internal monitor on the baby’s head, which some of the nurses were complaining about later that he didn’t do right away. I follow procedure on that. But for the nurses not allowed I like it depends on the state. Sometimes the nurses put it in, sometimes the doctors have to put it in.
[00:21:40.010] – Hilary Erickson
So it’s confusing. I don’t know. Yeah, but the nurses were kind of talking about the change of shift. Like, wait, he didn’t put one in.
[00:21:46.910] – Katelyn Fagan
What the heck? I don’t know.
[00:21:49.340] – Katelyn Fagan
I must have been his call or something. But so but they broke my water if this was being increased and that I passed all that like sixty six centimeters for the two hours after my water broke.
[00:21:59.510] – Hilary Erickson
And so the doctor comes in. He’s like, well, we haven’t seen any progress, so there’s no progress in the next hour, we’re going to go out and do a C section, and to which I replied, it hasn’t been that long. And he’s like, look, OK, you’re the one that wanted a vaginal delivery. Like, I didn’t want this, so I didn’t want this. Or like that was your choice. I don’t. But that was his attitude.
[00:22:20.800] – Katelyn Fagan
Again, just a peach of a doctor here. But again, not really listening to my wants or desires. And again, nothing was going wrong with the babies they were tracking. Fine. There’s nothing wrong with me. There’s nothing really to warrant a C-section at that point, in my opinion, because there was no emergency. So, of course, then I was like, well, I’ll show him. So the nurse shift change happened at that point.
[00:22:44.080] – Katelyn Fagan
And the nurse was like, hey, I happen to have a ball that I brought with me. And she’s like, Oh, I love this.
[00:22:50.110] – Hilary Erickson
And so which we weren’t allowed to use the hospitals if the hospital had them during covid because apparently we couldn’t disinfect them enough. So I’ll leave a link in the profile. It’s not a bad idea to buy your own friends. Yeah. So I actually I did. I bought my own because when I called the hospital ahead of time about a meeting and had other questions, I asked them. I asked about peanut balls because I had a ball with my last delivery and it worked like a charm because again, it kind of stalled at a certain point.
[00:23:14.740] – Katelyn Fagan
And then about an hour after using, I was pushing. And so I bought one this time because they said, yeah, we can’t sanitize it between patients enough. And I was like, what did you do before? But anyways, we just let the calamity around. Yeah, I was like, that’s creepy.
[00:23:29.440] – Hilary Erickson
And they always put a pad anyways or whatever, but so I bought my own because I was like, darn it, that’s what I need to do, then I’ll do it. So she was excited and we had pumped up, ready to go by the time she was there because we were getting ready to use it anyways. So I got on my side and laid flat. I had epidural and so I laid flat on the bed with on my right side to get a position there.
[00:23:51.700] – Katelyn Fagan
As long as the husband he helped me situated because it’s weird how those little beds anyways. So after like thirty minutes then I flip over to the other side and then he started feeling like had to poop or push or something. I don’t know was like yeah. So check me your saying. It’s kind of feel like that time you know. But apparently the doctor was like trying to deliver a different baby, like at the same time. And ironically, it was my husband’s co-worker who was trying to remove the baby.
[00:24:20.110] – Hilary Erickson
So anyways, but so I was like, OK, well, now I have to just wait do these contractions and feelings for a little bit. He came in not too much later and sure enough, it was at 10 centimeters. And so he’s like, oh, look at that. Me giving you a deadline did the trick. And I’m like, well, or peanut balls are just that awesome. Has nothing to do with you.
[00:24:38.770] – Katelyn Fagan
Excuse you do anything anyway. So he’s like, yeah, pitbulls are pretty good. And I’m like yeah are which I know. I feel like if doctors really do care about these timeline things like why then don’t they take more of an active role and like suggesting things like position changes, like lying on your side or using balls or other things. If they really want the baby then to come the next time I will say so. Some do, some be, especially after they check, I’ll be like, which way do you think we should turn our back?
[00:25:06.640] – Hilary Erickson
Because sometimes, by the way, the baby’s the font, Nelsa, it’s better to flip them and they’ll have a really good idea. But a lot of times they’re just like, whatever you want. They really just rely on the nurses to do those, like, midwife things. Yeah, yeah. And I in my experience as a nurses at the hospital, are a bag of tricks. They have all sorts of ideas. So use your midwives or midwives or nurses or whoever is at the hospital, because I do think that you guys know a lot.
[00:25:33.160] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah. And a lot of times when we don’t know, we go out to the nurses station, we’ll have another nurse check or they’ll come help us position and I’ll go in somebody else’s room. I’m not saying that. It’s like I’ll be here all somebody else. We all are just like, well, one time I did this and then it really helped. So positioning is a big deal. I love the peanut ball. So at any point in this where you just kind of like, oh, just get a C section.
[00:25:54.850] – Hilary Erickson
No, but I think that’s also you have a really firm personality. Yeah, right. About so any tips for moms who really want one way or the other when there’s no real? Obviously, if the baby was in distress or your uterus ruptured, you wouldn’t be like, hold on, I really want a vegetable delivery. You would have made the right app. But if things are just still just like you trying to be proactive, what do you have any tips for moms?
[00:26:23.950] – Katelyn Fagan
I think if you can have your spouse or partner or whoever come with you or even a mom or whoever best friend to come with the appointments because it’s hard, right? Like we all want to make our doctors happy. And I don’t know about a lot of appointments. You guys have jobs, but a lot of mine are very short and they are not in that room very long. And they kind of are like, just go over some information about, oh, now six weeks, next appointment, we’re going to do the glucose test or something, something.
[00:26:48.670] – Hilary Erickson
And then they’re kind of out the door. That’s my experience. Not everyone’s experiences with it like that. I understand. But having someone else there to kind of voice your desires for you can help because sometimes. Yeah, you’re a little timid to. Interrupt the doctor’s timeline, and he’s got all his appointments to see and do so, I think having some out there, if you can’t see covid, but some some people are allowing people to phone time in or otherwise or just say, hey, can you please give us more information about VBAC or repeat C sections or I’m really nervous about these things or whatever.
[00:27:22.220] – Katelyn Fagan
But yeah, I think just you have to speak up a little bit, which is which is hard. I totally think it’s hard because doctors know best is kind of the idea that a lot of us come to believe and such.
[00:27:32.720] – Hilary Erickson
So and they definitely believe this guy, not all of them. There are a lot who really are like, OK, what does she want? But this guy obviously felt like he he held all the cards. Yeah.
[00:27:42.980] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah. So I think, too, I know the nurses, the the nurse that came on the second shift especially, she was like she had heard the altercation, did her the discussion between him and me about an hour. And I was like, no thank you. And she was like after he left the room, we like to let him tell you about, like don’t let him do that. She’s like, I’ll I’ll get you. I’ll get you die.
[00:28:05.840] – Hilary Erickson
Don’t don’t you worry, you know. So I think if you’re in the hospital, like also relying on nurses and expressed to them at least what your desires are because nurses are way more friendly a lot of times or definitely more on your side. In my experience, I’ve never had a nurse that’s been a bully to me. So I don’t know, I think rely on your nurses to voice your your wishes to them versus then can repeat it to the doctor for you or you can use them as a liaison.
[00:28:30.230] – Katelyn Fagan
You also do it when the doctors aren’t in the room, because when they’re in the room, we we are not employed by doctors. But doctors are important to make the hospital run. And so if we say negative things and when they’re in the room, sometimes we can get in trouble. But if they’re not in the room, we can a lot of times give you the words to say or just like I’m not that concerned right now in my twenty years, I’ll say stuff like that.
[00:28:54.050] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. And so I think that can help a patient as well. But you kind of have to to ask us for that advice. We’re not going to just be like, well, Dr. Brown is a big fat jerk. You know, we’re not going to say that because. Right, right. And my first nurse definitely wasn’t saying that, but she wasn’t not saying that he’s happy. So or that can be a little more difficult. And so I yeah, I understand that you guys try to respect the doctors that you work for or work with, whatever the case is.
[00:29:22.010] – Katelyn Fagan
And that’s good. I mean, you shouldn’t necessarily that your doctors or whatever. And like, I try not to like I am bad talking to the doctor and I do feel a little bad, but at the same time, like, this was my experience and I did feel like I was often trying to be for us to not have a choice in my own delivery. Yeah. And I agree. I was texting Katelyn the whole day. Yeah.
[00:29:42.800] – Katelyn Fagan
And I was like, oh, I got that doctor again. But yeah, it’s, it’s just one of those things. So so while I think yeah.
[00:29:51.500] – Hilary Erickson
I do think the nurses that you have there and talk to them whether or not the doctors. Yeah.
[00:29:57.320] – Hilary Erickson
Something Mandy mentioned and one of my episodes was that you can always say I need to go to the restroom and you can always ask the nurse to come in with you and that can be your time to be like, I don’t know what I should do. Obviously, if you have an epidural, you’re screwed. But you can always say, I want some kind of like when you’re buying a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband and I talk about it without you in here and then be like, oh, could the nurse stay?
[00:30:20.180] – Hilary Erickson
I need my pad changed. No doctor is going to let me change your pad for you. That’s the nurses stuff anyway. So OK, so time for your big fairy tale ending.
[00:30:28.400] – Katelyn Fagan
What happened. OK, so I, the doctor came in, I was 10 centimeters dilated and ready to push and sure enough, push that baby a now three four contractions and the epidural is kind of wearing off. So definitely like, OK, we have that a little bit. But there she was. She was born to eight pounds, eleven ounces. So giant twin. And then they had an out of seventeen ready to go in the room.
[00:30:53.930] – Katelyn Fagan
He had brought it in kind of right away because in case baby B flipped or positions, because it happens a lot with twin babies, but baby they head down. So he came to the birth canal pretty quickly and then six months later pushed him out after a few contractions and he was eight pounds, 12 ounces.
[00:31:12.540] – Hilary Erickson
So. So what is that. Seventeen, eighteen pounds. Baby, how much is a seven and a half year. So much math. Yeah that’s a lot of baby. It’s a lot of baby. Right. And then delivered the placenta which that was like enormous. But anyway it’s like that being delivered that was, that was large. So I think that almost like kind of grown together a little bit. I don’t know if it was how could it not with that giant baby.
[00:31:35.420] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah, exactly. So that was a lot. And I only needed like one little internal stitch. So amazing. Yeah. And that was good, of course. Then, you know, two days afterwards, a different doctor from the the practice was checking in on me. It was like, you know, you took a really big risk. I was like, well, there’s always a risk in childbirth.
[00:31:55.730] – Hilary Erickson
So have you met a teenager? Talk about a risk. And so and I did go to my six week appointment with the doctor that delivered me, and it was funny, too, because he’s like that, you know, that’s one for the record books there. VBAC twins like you did really well.
[00:32:11.910] – Katelyn Fagan
It’s like, well, I’m glad you believe in me now anyway.
[00:32:17.750] – Hilary Erickson
Yeah. So you’re obviously very happy with your choice, but you were always flexible that if something happened or whatever, it could have been a different choice, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the question is, would this be the right choice for everyone? No, probably not. Yeah, I mean, I’m not everyone’s OK. But yeah, my history is probably more unique than a lot of people who are just trying for a back or even a VBAC twins.
[00:32:38.620] – Katelyn Fagan
And so, yeah, I’m not everybody. And so I can’t speak for everybody. And obviously I think that’s a hard thing. I didn’t have any other problems in my pregnancy. Right. Other than lots of pain and discomfort with four hundred pounds of baby in your belly. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I didn’t have any other conditions that would have made it more risky or something.
[00:32:59.440] – Hilary Erickson
So I think that’s a hard thing because I think we all look for somebody else who’s done something similar. Yeah, but it really just depends on your history. You would had you’d had a C-section, but then you had giant babies after and you’d had three of them. So that really changes your history. Rather, if you’ve just had a C-section, then this is your next one. Right. So but I do want to I mean, I do think if it’s something that you want to try for and there’s no reason that you’re not a good candidate for a vet because there are some things that will rule.
[00:33:28.540] – Katelyn Fagan
You are definitely making more risky, depending on what kind of cut or how long ago you had a C-section. And other issues are like where the placenta line, for instance. Right. Is over the scar. And so, yeah, I think that if you’re fine to have it like medically as of your back and you want to go for it, I would encourage you to go for it. And there’s no reason you have to just automatically do a repeat C-section.
[00:33:50.620] – Katelyn Fagan
I think people need to understand that as well. Like, you don’t necessarily always need to always do a C-section after a C-section. That’s kind of an old practice. And I will say some moms just choose to have a C-section, especially twins. You might have made the choice of maybe I’ll tie my tubes while I’m in there. And that can be a very valid choice to both choices are valid. It’s just up to the mom and what they want to do.
[00:34:14.020] – Katelyn Fagan
Yeah, for sure. So I want to have another vaginal delivery because I can imagine a C-section recovery with seven children.
[00:34:19.630] – Hilary Erickson
So, yeah. And my recovery was great. I mean, the first week or two are kind of awful, but still better long term I think, than having a C-section. Yeah.
[00:34:29.800] – Hilary Erickson
So that’s awesome. Anything else to add to moms who feel like they’re getting pressured? I think do your own research. You know, like, like I said, I’ve talked about like I went to the medical establishment, the ACLJ and or whatever, and looked at what they actually said, what the research is actually said about what risks there are and what kind of turn out to be. And then also then look at things like what are the benefits of dissection versus of the back and what all of your options are on all the risk that you can make a choice that you feel comfortable with, because ultimately it is your choice or it should be your choice if there’s nothing else medically wrong or that would cause cancer.
[00:35:08.200] – Hilary Erickson
OK, Katelyn, I think this was super helpful to people. I’m so glad you came on and I’m so glad that you have the four hundred pounds of baby out of your belly.
[00:35:16.300] – Katelyn Fagan
Me too, me too. So glad to be pregnant anymore. It’s amazing now.
[00:35:22.330] – Hilary Erickson
It’s amazing what that’ll do. Thanks, Katelyn.
[00:35:24.760] – Katelyn Fagan
All right. Thanks, Hilary.
[00:35:25.810] – Hilary Erickson
OK, I really like that episode, but I you know, so the doctor would have had to have charted informed consent given for VBAC, but he didn’t do one. Right. And so I think sometimes you have to say, OK, what are the risks? They love to tell us the risks.
[00:35:38.230] – Hilary Erickson
Right. But what would be the benefits of vaginal delivery right. In the situation? And the benefits could be, you know, abdominal scarring. No, it’s way better for babies to be born vaginally. Like, obviously, when the risks outweigh the benefits, then you choose to do a C-section. But when things are still just cautiously optimistic, I’m glad the Katelyn waited. I think that was better for her health and for a long term care.
[00:36:00.640] – Hilary Erickson
So hopefully you guys enjoy this episode. I think it’s important to give you guys real life examples of when maybe the medical establishment’s pushing one thing and your heart wants to do something else. So I like to give you guys the words and the ideas that you can have to state your case and try and get the information you need from your medical professionals. Also, guys, if you’re interested in more VBAC stories, Katelyn is in a book compiled by a bunch of moms and professionals talking just about vaccine how to get one or more information on them.
[00:36:28.030] – Hilary Erickson
So I’m going to put that through the link in the profile. This is the bonus episode. You can find it on Pulling Curls Podcast episode with Katelyn Fagan. Thanks so much for joining us today. I hope we help smooth out a few of the snarls in your life. We drop an episode every Monday and we always appreciate it when you guys share and review , and until next time, we hope you have a tangle free day!
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